From anotherscott@hotmail.com Mon Oct 28 06:33:09 2013
Subject:Re: Question about Roland VR-09 & Hammond SK1

Yeah, the jump of $600 from the 73 key SK1 to the 88 seems a but much, though I know that it's not just more keys, but also a different kind of key. Still, I think it would have been easier to justify the $600 difference if they had added aftertouch and pitch/mod wheels, which would really enhance the board's already strong MIDI controller functionality.


---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:

AnotherScott. You've nailed it pretty well. Originally I was looking for an 88 key board for under my Kronos. I wnat to play some things like Billy Joel's Scenes from an Italian Restaurant and that seems to need an 88 key board. So I looked at Casio Privia P5 and thougth I'd use the Kronos organs. But as I said, so far the Kronos organs I've found lacking even with the vent.

So when the SK1/88 came out I was excited. Until I saw the price tag. I don't mind paying a couple grand for a professional keyboard, I paid a lot for my Kronos X. But the price for the SK1/88 was $2995 and I was floored! And then I heard the EV's were very poor so I chucked the SK1 idea all together.

So I did go to the store a couple months ago and played the VR09. I was very much leanign that way but the keyboard hit me as a bit flimsy. But even so, I was very impressed with the ease of dialing in a LOT of cool sounds. So I was heavily leaning VR09. Then as I was walking out of the store, I saw the Sk1 and said "Let me see what all the fuss is about".

So I stopped and played it a bit and something about the tonewheel sound grabbed me. It was "THAT's a B3!" So then I went back and forth quite a few times between them, and walked out confused

So as far as the VR09 Pros: LOTS of good sounds. I liked the organ until I heard the SK1 (but I want to try Craig's tweaks to it to give it a fair shot). I love how easy and fast you can really tweak sounds with dedicated knobs and save EVERY parameter to a register. I like the light weight and I have been a Roland guy up until I got my Kronos. So now I'm Korg/Roland. The CONS: Keyboard feels light and small. Organ didn't "Catch my attention" the way the SK1 did.

For the SK1 PROS: That organ sound just hit me. It seemd to have a "something" that I hadn't heard before. I comes in 61, 73 and 88 keys. It has more EVs now than it did originally. The build quality seems a bit better and the keyboard is better than the VR09. CONS: The EVs are less than the Roland. No joystick or pitch/mod.

The thing is my current band doesn't value organs a lot. I play but they really dont' know the difference between one registration and another. Or one organ tone vs another. But bands come and go. And as a friend of mine on here said, "you have to be happy with what you're playing for you, not for the band".

So ideally, I'd like the SK1 Tonewheel sound, with all the voices and tweakability of the VR09 but in the SK1 package, have it bee 88 keys and more afordable than $2995. Is that too much to ask? LOL Aparently so.

So I will sit down with both and really spend time playing both. I'll take Craig's tweaks and try them and anyone else who wants to volunteer their favorite tweaks for either board. And make a decision.

If I go Sk1, it will likely be 73 key. Who knows, if I found a demo 88 key, maybe that. If VR09. well then there's only the 61.

So that's my story. And I'm stickign with it. And once I get one of them, my VR=760 will go up for sale. I'll let everyone know. I have it with two SRX cards. The one with EPs and one with Ultimate Keyboards.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
>
> Neither the VR-09 nor SK1 have aftertouch. That was a nice bonus on your VR-760, though you would still have it on your Kronos. The only lightweight "clonewheel" that also functions as a MIDI controller with aftertouch would be the Nord Stage 2-73. You might also look for an older Nord Stage/EX. And if you want "real" drawbar instead of buttons, you can add the Ocean Beach DB1.
>
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
>
> Hi all. I'm the OP and again thank you for the in depth analysis. I'm digesting everything said and my next step is to go t my favorite music store and spend a couple hours with these two side by side. They will likely let me put them side by side literally and I'll bring a small mixer with my headphones and literally play them both.
>
> I've considered the joystick and/or jack of it. I didn't realize that the SK1 has downloadable sounds and they didn't sound bad on the you tube demos I've heard.
>
> One subject I didn't think about is the after touch. I have to look and see which of the two has after touch.
>
> Thank you again. I will let everyone know what I choose when I make the decision
>
> Gene
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 24, 2013, at 2:45 PM, mailto:anotherscott@>?; wrote:
>
> I would say that it's a matter of what you're controlling. If you're controlling a Kronos that has its own joystick, then pitch/mod controls on your other keyboard are less of an issue than if you are controlling, say, a Roland Integra, or a laptop running VSTs.
>
> But presumably the OP is well aware of the fact that the VR has those controls and the SK and Nord do not, and if those are what he is considering, I guess for his own use, he doesn't consider those controls essential. And that's what it comes down to, each person determining what they need. At least the functional difference between the presence or lack of those controls is obvious, and you either care or you don't. The difference in MIDI functionality is not so easy to discern without really spending some research time. So hopefully this thread has helped him.
>
> Personally, I would rather have aftertouch than pitch/mod wheels! Unfortunately, it's become a rare option. But iI was recently working with a setup where I used a pedal for pitch bend and used aftertouch for modulation, and that worked nicely for me, because I can rarely spare a hand for pitch/mod wheels anyway.
>
> It also depends on one's playing style and reperto ire. If you're mostly playing piano, EP, organ, and other non-synth sounds, you might not care much about a pitch or mod control in the first place. Certainly Nord seems to have sold a ton of keyboards without them. So I don't think you should assume that every player thinks they are as important as you do. I've certainly done plenty of gigs where I never touched a pitch or mod control!
>
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
>
> AnotherScott,
>
> Again, practically speaking, if you're going to use your clone as a controller, I think its much more important for the clone to have a joystick rather than 3 different midi zones that can each send a program change... Why, because its likely that you'll be connecting it to a multitimbral device capable of creating its own splits an layers, and that's where you'll create the splits and layers... In the remote device not in the controller.. The exception to this is if you're using the clone to control multiple external devices.. In that case maybe the SK's 3 zones might be an advantage, otherwise I'll take the VR-09's joystick over the SK1's 3 zones!
>
> Craig
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 24, 2013, at 1:07 PM, mailto:anotherscott@>?; wrote:
>
> Yes, I think that would work... use the one Program Change in the registration to call up a Combi that responds or doesn't respond to whatever channels you want.
>
> The whole process of selectively triggering Kronos sounds or not from the second keyboard is still going to be easier on the Hammond (where it can be done entirely on the Hammond) than on the Roland (where it would have to be done through a combination of settings on both the Roland and the Kronos). It will also work better on the Hammond where you are actually disabling sending MIDI out. On the Roland, if you call up a "don't trigger Kronos" patch which depends on having the Roland call up a specific Korg Combi, you have the problem where, if you subsequently manually change the sound on the Kronos, the Roland could easily start to suddenly trigger Kronos sounds. Whereas on the Hammond, where your "don't trigger Kronos" patch simply sends no MIDI to the Kronos, you can continue to operate the Kronos independently without worrying about messing up whether or not your second keyboard is triggering it.
>
> But I agree, I'd be more inclined to try to use the Kronos to trigger the second keyboard than the other way around. Still, I could see where it could be convenient to also be able to hit a preset on the second board and have it call up something on the Kronos as well, and this is an area where the SK1 would be the stronger board.
>
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
>
> Anotherscott..
>
> Yes, I think your correct, on the VR-09 one registration equals 1 program change (despite transmitting on two different midi channels), but can't these program change be used to select a combination? Assuming that's the case can't you set up your combinations on the Kronos to respond or not respond to different midi channels??
>
> BTW, I wouldn't be using the VR-09 to select programs on the Kronos, I would probably be do ing the reverse using the setlist functionality in the Kronos to control the VR-09.. so I'd set up with combinations, and in those combinations I would/could simply enable/disable midi channels as appropriate and transmit program changes to the VR-09... wouldn't that make more sense (perhaps I'm oversimplifying this)..
>
> Regards,
> Craig MacDonald
>
> From: "anotherscott@"
> To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:27:54 PM
> Subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: [CWSG] RE: Question about Roland VR-09 & Hammond SK1
>
> Thanks, Craig, for the correction about being able to get to any VR-09 sound with the scroll wheel alone (as opposed to scroll wheel+button).
>
> Your point about sending on two different MIDI channels form the VR-09 (on either side of a split), actually adds a complication I didn't consider in my post. As mentioned, each Registration allows you to send a single Program Change command over a single MIDI channel (a specified Control channel). I was using that as a way to address the OP's concern about wanting the VR to sometimes trigger sounds in his Kronos, but other times not, by assigning either an audible or an inaudible Program Change to the Kronos from each of his VR-09 Registrations. (And I was assuming you can make your Control channel the same as your Upper channel, so that you'd be playing on the same channel you sent the Program Change on, which I'm actually not sure of, but hopefully is the case.) But I hadn't taken into account that, whenever you split the keyboard, the VR-09 is automatically transmitting on two different MIDI channels, but you can only send Program Change for one of the two channels.
>
> So again, the complication isn't one of getting the VR-09 to trigger the Kronos when you want to, but rather how to get it to stop triggering the Kronos when you don't want to. If I am putting this together correctly, any time you use the Split function on the VR-09, you will be transmitting on two channels to the Kronos, but you can only send one Program Change to the Kronos. So if you want the Kronos to be inaudible, it seems like there is no way to make it that way strictly from the VR... you'd have to somehow set your Kronos to not be responding to certain channels instead. So it's more complicated than I thought. It's certainly far easier on the SK1, where each zone can not only be set to send its own Program Change command, but can even be set to not send MIDI at all, so you don't even have to bother thinking about making silent patches on the Kronos.
>
> re: "I don't see the SK1's ability to have 3 different midi zones being that much of a practical advantage over the 2 zones available on the VR-09, certainly not compared to the practical advantage of the VR-09's joystick. "
>
> The advantage isn't just one of three zones versus two (and I would agree that, on 61 keys, two physical zones is often plenty), it's also other things, like that the three zones allow you to send three different MIDI Program Change commands per SK1 user preset, versus only one MIDI program change per Roland registration, and that each zone can be set to send MIDI or not. This allows you to call up different external sounds--or none at all--on either side of the split on the Hammond (to split or layer with its own sounds), that facility is missing from the Roland. And even if you don't care about having a third physical zone, that third zone control can still be used for sending out another MIDI Program Change (for example, to change the preset on your attached Burn). SK1 presets can also include other information for each external zone, besides separate Program Changes and enable/disable settings. For each zone, you can also specify things like octave shift and volume. Really, as a MIDI controller, I don't think the VR-09 is nearly as flexible as the Hammond. Except yes, you lose the pitch/mod wheel. But if your other board in your 2-board MIDI rig has them, I think you're covered there.
>
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Anotherscott,
>
> Your description of the rotary knob on the Roland VR-09 is incorrect. You can get to any registration using just the knob.. as you turn the knob it advances through registration 1-1 to 1-2 to 1-3 to 1-4 then to bank two registration 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, 2-4 then 3-1 etc etc.. you do NOT have to use the knob plus bank/registration buttons. Once you have selected any registration, the knob increments or decrements one registration at a time as you turn it right or left. The rotary control is very easy to use live on the VR-09, all you have to do is dial up your registration and no additional button pushes are necessary at all.
>
> I do see the Bank arrangement on the VR-09 as a slight advantage in one respect, and that is that you have one button access to 4 different registrations.. SO, it is quite easy to use this to move from one registration to another within a song, since it only requires one button push. So, I can have one registration for the verse of a song and a different registration for the chorus, and alternate between the two of them easily with one simple button push.
>
> The SK1 having 100 factory patches + 100 user programs is an advantage since the VR-09 has only 100 user registrations however, the SK1 has no advantage when it comes to dialing programs/registrations, using the rotary encoder. There is no inputting of numbers required to change registrations on the VR-09, you simply spin the dial!. Each bank has 4 registrations available with one button push and I see this as an advantage for the VR-09. It really depends on how you want to use the keyboard. Would you prefer 10 fixed favourites.. and 3 button pushes to get any other sound, or do you prefer 25 banks with 4 totally different configurations available with one button push.. From my perspective I prefer the latter and the advantage goes to the VR-09.
>
> Also, if I understand your comments correctly (and perhaps I've misunderstood), you've suggested that the VR-09 cannot create different zones and trigger multiple sounds on different midi channels on the Kronos, but this is incorrect also. The VR-09 can trigger sounds on two different midi channels by simply creating a split.. with different midi channels on the upper and lower parts. I don't see the SK1's ability to have 3 different midi zones being that much of a practical advantage over the 2 zones available on the VR-09, certainly not compared to the practical advantage of the VR-09's joystick. Again advantage goes to the VR-09.
>
> Hope this helps to clarify some misinformation.
>
> Regards,
> Craig MacDonald
>
> From: "anotherscott@"
> To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:22:50 AM
> Subject: RE: RE: Re: Re: [CWSG] RE: Question about Roland VR-09 & Hammond SK1
>
> re: "1) How many favorites can you save? (SK1 I heard 10. That's a bit limiting for me) "
>
> As has been mentioned, you can save 100 user presets, same as on the VR-09 (where they care called Registrations). To me, the bigger question for live performance is, how many of your custom presets can you get to with a single button press, or with 2-3 button presses? From reading the manuals (I don't have hands-on experience with these yet), it looks like this:
>
> On the SK1, you have ten recall buttons, which can be set to either get you ten of your user presets with single button presses, or as a keypad to call up any of 99 of your presets within 3 button presses (i.e. 9-9-enter for preset 99). (The 100th sound would require four button presses.)
>
> On the VR-09, you have four recall buttons plus a bank button. So you can get to only four of your presets with a single button press, or only up to 16 of your presets within 3 button presses (i.e. bank-4-4 to get to your 16th sound, the 4th sound in bank 4). To get to sounds beyond the first 16, you have to dial in the bank with the scroll wheel, which is not easy to quickly manipulate live.
>
> Though on the Roland, once you are in a given bank, you can switch among those four sounds with a single button; on the Hammond, assuming you want quick access to more than ten, virtually all your patch selections will require three buttons.
>
> The other way to navigate your 100 user presets on the Hammond is with the knob. I don't like scrolling with a knob live, but if you must, here again the Hammond has the edge. With the Hammond, you can use the knob to get directly get to any of your 100 user presets. On the Roland, you have to use the scroll wheel to navigate to one of your 25 banks, and then use a button to select one of the four sounds in that bank, so it is a two step operation, you can't scroll directly to any sound. In addition, I find scroll wheels more difficult to control quickly and accurately compared to a knob.
>
> So overall, I'd give Hammond the edge for built-in patch selection facility. Though in either case, you can also use some other device to get to patches, i.e. a MIDI patch select foot pedal, an iPad, or the MIDI control functions of another keyboard (like your Kronos).
>
> re: "2) Is there an easy way to activate MIDI on the keybaord so if for one song I wanted it to play sounds off my Kronos, can I do that relatively quickly or is it many button pushes if it can be done at all."
>
> On the Hammond, for each of your user presets, you can determine whether or not you want to send MIDI out (and if so, on what channel, and calling up which program). You can also specify which section of keys should transmit MIDI (you can split the board into up to three MIDI zones).
>
> The VR-09 is less flexible here, but you can probably do what you want. As far as I can see, your user presets (Registrations) always send MIDI, so activating it isn't the problem, DE-activating it is.Like the Hammond, each user preset allows you to specify what channel you want to transmit MIDI on and what program you want to call up, but unlike the Hammond, you can't seem to turn it off altogether. So I think what you would do on the presets where you do NOT want to trigger the Kronos is that you would set it up to call up some Kronos preset on some channel that, itself, is silent. Also unlike the Hammond, whatever Kronos preset you call up will be triggered from the entire VR-09 range, you can't split the VR's keyboard into multiple zones (i.e. if you wanted to layer a Kronos and a VR sound over just a portion of the VR's keyboard). Though if you had need to trigger a Kronos sound over just part of the VR's range, you should be able to set the sound up in the Kronos so that it would only play over a specified range of keys.
>
> Anyway, you happen to have picked two areas where I think the SK1 outshines the VR... patch selection and MIDI control. Though the VR does have one MIDI advantage over the SK as well, in that it has pitch and mod controls. But if you're using pitch and mod controls, it means you're playing a one-handed part, and that being the case, you could just play that part on the Kronos itself.
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: I'm not sure how you had yours set up but I don't think you had something set correctly. I have my SK-1 set up so that its keyboard usually plays the internal Extra Voices along with some of the Extra Voices in the XK-3c. Part of the lower manual of my XK-3c/System plays the upper manual of the SK-1's organ. I have the preset load parameters set so that pressing one of the Favorites buttons calls up the EV I want but none of the organ related settings change. The System expression pedal controls the SK' s volume and everything works as one large instrument. I also have an old Hammond M2 with a line out that I run into th e XK-3c effects return to the right of the System so I can play it along with everything else. It all works smoothly.
>
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: About question 2 - the SK responds either to MIDI OR the keyboard for the internal sounds to sound. So if you set the SK to MIDI you can play it from the Kronos. But if want to play the SK keyboard it will not sound. You will have to go into the menu and change it from MIDI to internal so that it will sound. I had a sequencer palying the organ part on some songs (sk set to MIDI) and on other songs I played the organ 'live'. I had to switch the SK to internal to do this. Main reason I returned it. Nice soundin g hammond sound and sim though.
> On Monday, October 21, 2013 11:06 AM, "jjmcs49@" wrote:
>
> The SK's have 200 Patches stored/available - 100 Preset and 100 User. The 100 Preset patches are locked and can't be changed, the 100 User Patches are editable.
>
> The 10 Favorites buttons have 4 modes of use - from the SK manual (Pg. 76):
>
> This is for setting the action of the Favorite Buttons. ASSOCIATE: Each number button usually calls the related patch. If you touch each number button holding down the [RECORD] button, it relates the number button to the currently selected patch.
>
> * Using this mode means a given patch is associated with each button ie: button 1 could be Patch 32, button 2 Patch 99 and so on. In this mode pressing a button and record assigns the currently active patch to that button (but does not actually save any changes to the Patch that have not been saved separately).
>
> OVERWRITE: In addition to above, if you touch each number button holding down the [RECORD] button, it records the current setting to the selected patch.
>
> * This mode works the same as above except that pressing a button and record assigns the active patch to the button but also saves the patch and any changes that have been made (but not already saved separately).
>
> LOCKED1-10: Each number button usually calls the corresponding patch, 1 ... 10. If you touch each number button holding down the [RECORD] button, it records the current setting to the corresponding patch, 1 ... 10.
>
> * This mode connects buttons 1 - 10 to Patches 1 - 10. If Patch 32 is active and button 3 is pressed plus record, Patch 32 is also saved to Patch 3 and button 3 will call up Patch 3.
>
> DIRECT: This is for directly calling the patch, using each number button. To call the patch, fi rst put in the 3 digit patch number and then touch the [ENTER] button. U001 ... [1], [ENTER] U010 ... [1], [10], [ENTER] U100 ... [1], [10], [10], [ENTER] P001 ... [1], [10], [1], [ENTER] P010 ... [1], [1], [10], [ENTER] P100 ... [2], [10], [10], [ENTER] You can not relate the patch to each number button.
>
> * This mode basically just turns the Favorites buttons into a keypad so any of the 200 Patches can be called up directly.
>
> The SK's have External Zones which are Patch parameters so you could have any number (up to 100) of Patches which can be set to control external devices as well as change the current setup of the SK.
>
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: You didn't confirm how many presets there are on the SK? I don 't recall, I only owned one for about 48 hours.. Is it just 10 favourites?
>
> I agree with you on most of your points but as far as the extra voices, I think that's really a matter of taste. However, one of the areas that you said you preferred on the sk1 was strings, but as far as I know the SK1 has no warm strings at all, and about the worst thin and harsh sounding strings I've ever heard on a keyboard.. Perhaps they've added some new downloadable strings but the ones I heard were awful. You can argue which has better EP/AP and clav sounds but as far as everything else goes the VR-09 is way ahead, including strings, and brass sounds.
>
> One last point about the advantage of the VR over the SK.. VIRTUAL ANALOG SYNTH!
> Basically this is the same synth that's in the top of the line Jupiter 80 (albeit limited to 3 layers). This thing has over 330 different wave forms to choose from, so if you can't find a sound you like in the VR-09, you can probably make it using the VA synth.. This is an outstanding advantage for the VR-09 but only IF you want/need synth sounds.
>
> From my perspective if Gene likes the VK organ sound (many don't) then the VR-09 is almost a no-brainier here so long as he doesn't mind the keyboard...
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 21, 2013, at 8:55 AM, mailto:den121961@>?; wrote:
>
> Gene, I have both. I don't delve into midi that much so I can't answer that one, but as far as the first goes, there's a difference between presets and favorites on the SK, you can store 100 presets on the SK, the favorites are just quicker to get to under your fingers fast. I actually find the SK quicker to get to sounds in, the VR you have to do a few button presses, the SK I have the banks of presets loaded up so I go to the rhodes favorite, and if I twist the value knob after hitting the favorite I can sweep through all my rhodeses, so even though it's only 10, it's actually quicker if you set it up right. The VR you have to pick a bank, then a preset. I'm slower at that (although I admittedly use the SK more so I know it better). Bottom line, they both have great organ sounds, but the SK feels way more playable to me with the keys and drawbars. The no pitch bend is something to consider though if you do use a lot of synth, and also no port amento on the SK. The SK has some nice sounds as far as synth goes, but not having the bender makes it unplayable for me for the most part. On the other hand the SK's sounds are way better to my ear on a lot of things (like deep strings, rhodes, clav, etc.) What's really cool is I have both so with a two tiered stand you can bring both and be under the weight of your roland.
> ---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: HI Everyone. I'm still deciding between a Roland VR-09 and a Hammond SK1 to go with my Kronos X61. I currently use a Roland VR-760 for Organ and other Synth type sounds (limited but it works). But the VR-760 is getting to heavy for this back to carry.
>
> So a couple questions to you owners of these two rigs.
> 1) How many favorites can you save? (SK1 I heard 10. That's a bit limiting for me)
> 2) Is there an easy way to activate MIDI on the keybaord so if for one song I wanted it to play sounds off my Kronos, can I do that relatively quickly or is it many button pushes if it can be done at all.
>
> I guess I'd also consider the same questions about the Nord 4D. I haven't been able to find out by looking in the manuals athough I've not taked a deep dive in them, just read the basics. Your experience and knowledge would be helpful.
>
> Thanks,
> Gene
>