From den121961@yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 10:13:42 2013
Subject:Re: RE: Re: Re: Question about Roland VR-09 & Hammond SK1

Craig,I think you're right, it depends on how you set up the keyboard, there's workarounds for the 10 button way of the SK and the multiple bank of the VR. They both scroll through the whole set of sounds the same. I didn't want to take the SK out of the studio last night, and pull the vent, etc. SO I decided to use the VR. I've been wanting to do this at a jam, but always end up wanting the SK for some reason or other, so last night's rehearsal was the chance. Besides the guitarist was going down with me, and it was raining so we had to fit both our gear in the back of the ranger behind the seats. I found the organ totally usable, and the rest of the band couldn't tell the difference between it and the SK. I could, it wasn't better or worse, just different. Since I got this as a spare organ in case my SK goes down mid gig, I was pretty well assured that it would do it just fine. The only thing I didn't like was the thing seemed either loud or soft, no in between, and I am thinking that's probably due to what I have the expression pedal set at. It's fine at home, but in a band situation it didn't cut it, so what setting are you and everyone else using for that? I was having a lot of trouble finding my way around switching sounds, but then again I did with the SK and now I am fine, so I'm sure it's just a matter of getting used to it. I need to find a useful EP in it yet, but the band loved the chicago harp sound in the thing. I'm doing a blues fest this weekend with three harp bands playing after the bands I play in, not sure I have the balls to do it but I'm tempted to do a harp solo just to wind up the harp guys (and girl).

I'll be honest, there's no way this thing is replacing the SK for me, but it is a way cool little instrument. The synth section is pretty potent, and there's some cool other sounds in the thing. The SK and VR would do anything I needed them to do together (except AP wiCh I avoid like the plague).

---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:

Anotherscott,

Your description of the rotary knob on the Roland VR-09 is incorrect. You can get to any registration using just the knob.. as you turn the knob it advances through registration 1-1 to 1-2 to 1-3 to 1-4 then to bank two registration 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, 2-4 then 3-1 etc etc.. you do NOT have to use the knob plus bank/registration buttons. Once you have selected any registration, the knob increments or decrements one registration at a time as you turn it right or left. The rotary control is very easy to use live on the VR-09, all you have to do is dial up your registration and no additional button pushes are necessary at all.

I do see the Bank arrangement on the VR-09 as a slight advantage in one respect, and that is that you have one button access to 4 different registrations.. SO, it is quite easy to use this to move from one registration to another within a song, since it only requires one button push. So, I can have one registration for the verse of a song and a different registration for the chorus, and alternate between the two of them easily with one simple button push.

The SK1 having 100 factory patches + 100 user programs is an advantage since the VR-09 has only 100 user registrations however, the SK1 has no advantage when it comes to dialing programs/registrations, using the rotary encoder. There is no inputting of numbers required to change registrations on the VR-09, you simply spin the dial!. Each bank has 4 registrations available with one button push and I see this as an advantage for the VR-09. It really depends on how you want to use the keyboard. Would you prefer 10 fixed favourites.. and 3 button pushes to get any other sound, or do you prefer 25 banks with 4 totally different configurations available with one button push.. From my perspective I prefer the latter and the advantage goes to the VR-09.

Also, if I understand your comments correctly (and perhaps I've misunderstood), you've suggested that the VR-09 cannot create different zones and trigger multiple sounds on different midi channels on the Kronos, but this is incorrect also. The VR-09 can trigger sounds on two different midi channels by simply creating a split.. with different midi channels on the upper and lower parts. I don't see the SK1's ability to have 3 different midi zones being that much of a practical advantage over the 2 zones available on the VR-09, certainly not compared to the practical advantage of the VR-09's joystick. Again advantage goes to the VR-09.

Hope this helps to clarify some misinformation.

Regards,
Craig MacDonald



From: "anotherscott@..."
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:22:50 AM
Subject: RE: RE: Re: Re: [CWSG] RE: Question about Roland VR-09 & Hammond SK1

re: "1) How many favorites can you save? (SK1 I heard 10. That's a bit limiting for me) "


As has been mentioned, you can save 100 user presets, same as on the VR-09 (where they care called Registrations). To me, the bigger question for live performance is, how many of your custom presets can you get to with a single button press, or with 2-3 button presses? From reading the manuals (I don't have hands-on experience with these yet), it looks like this:


On the SK1, you have ten recall buttons, which can be set to either get you ten of your user presets with single button presses, or as a keypad to call up any of 99 of your presets within 3 button presses (i.e. 9-9-enter for preset 99). (The 100th sound would require four button presses.)


On the VR-09, you have four recall buttons plus a bank button. So you can get to only four of your presets with a single button press, or only up to 16 of your presets within 3 button presses (i.e. bank-4-4 to get to your 16th sound, the 4th sound in bank 4). To get to sounds beyond the first 16, you have to dial in the bank with the scroll wheel, which is not easy to quickly manipulate live.


Though on the Roland, once you are in a given bank, you can switch among those four sounds with a single button; on the Hammond, assuming you want quick access to more than ten, virtually all your patch selections will require three buttons.


The other way to navigate your 100 user presets on the Hammond is with the knob. I don't like scrolling with a knob live, but if you must, here again the Hammond has the edge. With the Hammond, you can use the knob to get directly get to any of your 100 user presets. On the Roland, you have to use the scroll wheel to navigate to one of your 25 banks, and then use a button to select one of the four sounds in that bank, so it is a two step operation, you can't scroll directly to any sound. In addition, I find scroll wheels more difficult to control quickly and accurately compared to a knob.


So overall, I'd give Hammond the edge for built-in patch selection facility. Though in either case, you can also use some other device to get to patches, i.e. a MIDI patch select foot pedal, an iPad, or the MIDI control functions of another keyboard (like your Kronos).


re: "2) Is there an easy way to activate MIDI on the keybaord so if for one song I wanted it to play sounds off my Kronos, can I do that relatively quickly or is it many button pushes if it can be done at all."


On the Hammond, for each of your user presets, you can determine whether or not you want to send MIDI out (and if so, on what channel, and calling up which program). You can also specify which section of keys should transmit MIDI (you can split the board into up to three MIDI zones).



The VR-09 is less flexible here, but you can probably do what you want. As far as I can see, your user presets (Registrations) always send MIDI, so activating it isn't the problem, DE-activating it is.Like the Hammond, each user preset allows you to specify what channel you want to transmit MIDI on and what program you want to call up, but unlike the Hammond, you can't seem to turn it off altogether. So I think what you would do on the presets where you do NOT want to trigger the Kronos is that you would set it up to call up some Kronos preset on some channel that, itself, is silent. Also unlike the Hammond, whatever Kronos preset you call up will be triggered from the entire VR-09 range, you can't split the VR's keyboard into multiple zones (i.e. if you wanted to layer a Kronos and a VR sound over just a portion of the VR's keyboard). Though if you had need to trigger a Kronos sound over just part of the VR's range, you should be able to set the sound up in the Kronos so that it would only play over a specified range of keys.


Anyway, you happen to have picked two areas where I think the SK1 outshines the VR... patch selection and MIDI control. Though the VR does have one MIDI advantage over the SK as well, in that it has pitch and mod controls. But if you're using pitch and mod controls, it means you're playing a one-handed part, and that being the case, you could just play that part on the Kronos itself.
---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: I'm not sure how you had yours set up but I don't think you had something set correctly. I have my SK-1 set up so that its keyboard usually plays the internal Extra Voices along with some of the Extra Voices in the XK-3c. Part of the lower manual of my XK-3c/System plays the upper manual of the SK-1's organ. I have the preset load parameters set so that pressing one of the Favorites buttons calls up the EV I want but none of the organ related settings change. The System expression pedal controls the SK's volume and everything works as one large instrument. I also have an old Hammond M2 with a line out that I run into the XK-3c effects return to the right of the System so I can play it along with everything else. It all works smoothly.

---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: About question 2 - the SK responds either to MIDI OR the keyboard for the internal sounds to sound. So if you set the SK to MIDI you can play it from the Kronos. But if want to play the SK keyboard it will not sound. You will have to go into the menu and change it from MIDI to internal so that it will sound. I had a sequencer palying the organ part on some songs (sk set to MIDI) and on other songs I played the organ 'live'. I had to switch the SK to internal to do this. Main reason I returned it. Nice sounding hammond sound and sim though.
On Monday, October 21, 2013 11:06 AM, "jjmcs49@..." wrote:

The SK's have 200 Patches stored/available - 100 Preset and 100 User. The 100 Preset patches are locked and can't be changed, the 100 User Patches are editable.


The 10 Favorites buttons have 4 modes of use - from the SK manual (Pg. 76):


This is for setting the action of the Favorite Buttons. ASSOCIATE: Each number button usually calls the related patch. If you touch each number button holding down the [RECORD] button, it relates the number button to the currently selected patch.


* Using this mode means a given patch is associated with each button ie: button 1 could be Patch 32, button 2 Patch 99 and so on. In this mode pressing a button and record assigns the currently active patch to that button (but does not actually save any changes to the Patch that have not been saved separately).



OVERWRITE: In addition to above, if you touch each number button holding down the [RECORD] button, it records the current setting to the selected patch.


* This mode works the same as above except that pressing a button and record assigns the active patch to the button but also saves the patch and any changes that have been made (but not already saved separately).



LOCKED1-10: Each number button usually calls the corresponding patch, 1 ... 10. If you touch each number button holding down the [RECORD] button, it records the current setting to the corresponding patch, 1 ... 10.


* This mode connects buttons 1 - 10 to Patches 1 - 10. If Patch 32 is active and button 3 is pressed plus record, Patch 32 is also saved to Patch 3 and button 3 will call up Patch 3.





DIRECT: This is for directly calling the patch, using each number button. To call the patch, fi rst put in the 3 digit patch number and then touch the [ENTER] button. U001 ... [1], [ENTER] U010 ... [1], [10], [ENTER] U100 ... [1], [10], [10], [ENTER] P001 ... [1], [10], [1], [ENTER] P010 ... [1], [1], [10], [ENTER] P100 ... [2], [10], [10], [ENTER] You can not relate the patch to each number button.


* This mode basically just turns the Favorites buttons into a keypad so any of the 200 Patches can be called up directly.




The SK's have External Zones which are Patch parameters so you could have any number (up to 100) of Patches which can be set to control external devices as well as change the current setup of the SK.

---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: You didn't confirm how many presets there are on the SK? I don't recall, I only owned one for about 48 hours.. Is it just 10 favourites?


I agree with you on most of your points but as far as the extra voices, I think that's really a matter of taste. However, one of the areas that you said you preferred on the sk1 was strings, but as far as I know the SK1 has no warm strings at all, and about the worst thin and harsh sounding strings I've ever heard on a keyboard.. Perhaps they've added some new downloadable strings but the ones I heard were awful. You can argue which has better EP/AP and clav sounds but as far as everything else goes the VR-09 is way ahead, including strings, and brass sounds.


One last point about the advantage of the VR over the SK.. VIRTUAL ANALOG SYNTH!
Basically this is the same synth that's in the top of the line Jupiter 80 (albeit limited to 3 layers). This thing has over 330 different wave forms to choose from, so if you can't find a sound you like in the VR-09, you can probably make it using the VA synth.. This is an outstanding advantage for the VR-09 but only IF you want/need synth sounds.


From my perspective if Gene likes the VK organ sound (many don't) then the VR-09 is almost a no-brainier here so long as he doesn't mind the keyboard...
Sent from my iPad

On Oct 21, 2013, at 8:55 AM, wrote:

Gene, I have both. I don't delve into midi that much so I can't answer that one, but as far as the first goes, there's a difference between presets and favorites on the SK, you can store 100 presets on the SK, the favorites are just quicker to get to under your fingers fast. I actually find the SK quicker to get to sounds in, the VR you have to do a few button presses, the SK I have the banks of presets loaded up so I go to the rhodes favorite, and if I twist the value knob after hitting the favorite I can sweep through all my rhodeses, so even though it's only 10, it's actually quicker if you set it up right. The VR you have to pick a bank, then a preset. I'm slower at that (although I admittedly use the SK more so I know it better). Bottom line, they both have great organ sounds, but the SK feels way more playable to me with the keys and drawbars. The no pitch bend is something to consider though if you do use a lot of synth, and also no portamento on the SK. The SK has some nice sounds as far as synth goes, but not having the bender makes it unplayable for me for the most part. On the other hand the SK's sounds are way better to my ear on a lot of things (like deep strings, rhodes, clav, etc.) What's really cool is I have both so with a two tiered stand you can bring both and be under the weight of your roland.
---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote: HI Everyone. I'm still deciding between a Roland VR-09 and a Hammond SK1 to go with my Kronos X61. I currently use a Roland VR-760 for Organ and other Synth type sounds (limited but it works). But the VR-760 is getting to heavy for this back to carry.

So a couple questions to you owners of these two rigs.
1) How many favorites can you save? (SK1 I heard 10. That's a bit limiting for me)
2) Is there an easy way to activate MIDI on the keybaord so if for one song I wanted it to play sounds off my Kronos, can I do that relatively quickly or is it many button pushes if it can be done at all.

I guess I'd also consider the same questions about the Nord 4D. I haven't been able to find out by looking in the manuals athough I've not taked a deep dive in them, just read the basics. Your experience and knowledge would be helpful.

Thanks,
Gene