From ccmacdon@rogers.com Thu Oct 24 09:39:29 2013
Subject:Re: RE: Re: Re: Question about Roland VR-09 & Hammond SK1

Anotherscott..
 
Yes, I think your correct, on the VR-09 one registration equals 1 program change (despite transmitting on two different midi channels), but can't these program change be used to select a combination? Assuming that's the case can't you set up your combinations on the Kronos to respond or not respond to different midi channels??
 
BTW, I wouldn't be using the VR-09 to select programs on the Kronos, I would probably be doing the reverse using the setlist functionality in the Kronos to control the VR-09.. so I'd set up with combinations, and in those combinations I would/could simply enable/disable midi channels as appropriate and transmit program changes to the VR-09... wouldn't that make more sense (perhaps I'm oversimplifying this).. 
 
Regards,
Craig MacDonald


________________________________
From: "anotherscott@hotmail.com"
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:27:54 PM
Subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: [CWSG] RE: Question about Roland VR-09 & Hammond SK1

 

Thanks, Craig, for the correction about being able to get to any VR-09 sound with the scroll wheel alone (as opposed to scroll wheel+button).

Your point about sending on two different MIDI channels form the VR-09 (on either side of a split), actually adds a complication I didn't consider in my post. As mentioned, each Registration allows you to send a single Program Change command over a single MIDI channel (a specified Control channel). I was using that as a way to address the OP's concern about wanting the VR to sometimes trigger sounds in his Kronos, but other times not, by assigning either an audible or an inaudible Program Change to the Kronos from each of his VR-09 Registrations. (And I was assuming you can make your Control channel the same as your Upper channel, so that you'd be playing on the same channel you sent the Program Change on, which I'm actually not sure of, but hopefully is the case.) But I hadn't taken into account that, whenever you split the keyboard, the VR-09 is automatically transmitting on two different MIDI channels, but you can only send Program Change for one of
the two channels. 

So again, the complication isn't one of getting the VR-09 to trigger the Kronos when you want to, but rather how to get it to stop triggering the Kronos when you don't want to. If I am putting this together correctly, any time you use the Split function on the VR-09, you will be transmitting on two channels to the Kronos, but you can only send one Program Change to the Kronos. So if you want the Kronos to be inaudible, it seems like there is no way to make it that way strictly from the VR... you'd have to somehow set your Kronos to not be responding to certain channels instead. So it's more complicated than I thought. It's certainly far easier on the SK1, where each zone can not only be set to send its own Program Change command, but can even be set to not send MIDI at all, so you don't even have to bother thinking about making silent patches on the Kronos.

re: "I don't see the SK1's ability to have 3 different midi zones being that much of a practical advantage over the 2 zones available on the VR-09, certainly not compared to the practical advantage of the VR-09's joystick. "

The advantage isn't just one of three zones versus two (and I would agree that, on 61 keys, two physical zones is often plenty), it's also other things, like that the three zones allow you to send three different MIDI Program Change commands per SK1 user preset, versus only one MIDI program change per Roland registration, and that each zone can be set to send MIDI or not. This allows you to call up different external sounds--or none at all--on either side of the split on the Hammond (to split or layer with its own sounds), that facility is missing from the Roland. And even if you don't care about having a third physical zone, that third zone control can still be used for sending out another MIDI Program Change (for example, to change the preset on your attached Burn). SK1 presets can also include other information for each external zone, besides separate Program Changes and enable/disable settings. For each zone, you can also specify things like octave
shift and volume. Really, as a MIDI controller, I don't think the VR-09 is nearly as flexible as the Hammond. Except yes, you lose the pitch/mod wheel. But if your other board in your 2-board MIDI rig has them, I think you're covered there.

---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
Anotherscott, 
 
Your description of the rotary knob on the Roland VR-09 is incorrect. You can get to any registration using just the knob.. as you turn the knob it advances through registration 1-1 to 1-2 to 1-3 to 1-4 then to bank two registration 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, 2-4 then 3-1 etc etc.. you do NOT have to use the knob plus bank/registration buttons.  Once you have selected any registration, the knob increments or decrements one registration at a time as you turn it right or left.  The rotary control is very easy to use live on the VR-09, all you have to do is dial up your registration and no additional button pushes are necessary at all.
 
I do see the Bank arrangement on the VR-09 as a slight advantage in one respect, and that is that you have one button access to 4 different registrations.. SO, it is quite easy to use this to move from one registration to another within a song, since it only requires one button push. So, I can have one registration for the verse of a song and a different registration for the chorus, and alternate between the two of them easily with one simple button push. 
 
The SK1 having 100 factory patches + 100 user programs is an advantage since the VR-09 has only 100 user registrations however, the SK1 has no advantage when it comes to dialing programs/registrations, using the rotary encoder. There is no inputting of numbers required to change registrations on the VR-09, you simply spin the dial!.  Each bank has 4 registrations available with one button push and I see this as an advantage for the VR-09. It really depends on how you want to use the keyboard. Would you prefer 10 fixed favourites.. and 3 button pushes to get any other sound, or do you prefer 25 banks with 4 totally different configurations available with one button push..  From my perspective I prefer the latter and the advantage goes to the VR-09.  
 
Also, if I understand your comments correctly (and perhaps I've misunderstood), you've suggested that the VR-09 cannot create different zones and trigger multiple sounds on different midi channels on the Kronos, but this is incorrect also. The VR-09 can trigger sounds on two different midi channels by simply creating a split.. with different midi channels on the upper and lower parts. I don't see the SK1's ability to have 3 different midi zones being that much of a practical advantage over the 2 zones available on the VR-09, certainly not compared to the practical advantage of the VR-09's joystick. Again advantage goes to the VR-09. 
 
Hope this helps to clarify some misinformation.  
 
Regards,
Craig MacDonald


________________________________
From: "anotherscott@..."
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:22:50 AM
Subject: RE: RE: Re: Re: [CWSG] RE: Question about Roland VR-09 & Hammond SK1

 
re: "1) How many favorites can you save?  (SK1 I heard 10.  That's a bit limiting for me) " 

As has been mentioned, you can save 100 user presets, same as on the VR-09 (where they care called Registrations). To me, the bigger question for live performance is, how many of your custom presets can you get to with a single button press, or with 2-3 button presses? From reading the manuals (I don't have hands-on experience with these yet), it looks like this:

On the SK1, you have ten recall buttons, which can be set to either get you ten of your user presets with single button presses, or as a keypad to call up any of 99 of your presets within 3 button presses (i.e. 9-9-enter for preset 99). (The 100th sound would require four button presses.)

On the VR-09, you have four recall buttons plus a bank button. So you can get to only four of your presets with a single button press, or only up to 16 of your presets within 3 button presses (i.e. bank-4-4 to get to your 16th sound, the 4th sound in bank 4). To get to sounds beyond the first 16, you have to dial in the bank with the scroll wheel, which is not easy to quickly manipulate live.

Though on the Roland, once you are in a given bank, you can switch among those four sounds with a single button; on the Hammond, assuming you want quick access to more than ten, virtually all your patch selections will require three buttons.

The other way to navigate your 100 user presets on the Hammond is with the knob. I don't like scrolling with a knob live, but if you must, here again the Hammond has the edge. With the Hammond, you can use the knob to get directly get to any of your 100 user presets. On the Roland, you have to use the scroll wheel to navigate to one of your 25 banks, and then use a button to select one of the four sounds in that bank, so it is a two step operation, you can't scroll directly to any sound. In addition, I find scroll wheels more difficult to control quickly and accurately compared to a knob.

So overall, I'd give Hammond the edge for built-in patch selection facility. Though in either case, you can also use some other device to get to patches, i.e. a MIDI patch select foot pedal, an iPad, or the MIDI control functions of another keyboard (like your Kronos).

re: "2) Is there an easy way to activate MIDI on the keybaord so if for one song I wanted it to play sounds off my Kronos, can I do that relatively quickly or is it many button pushes if it can be done at all." 

On the Hammond, for each of your user presets, you can determine whether or not you want to send MIDI out (and if so, on what channel, and calling up which program). You can also specify which section of keys should transmit MIDI (you can split the board into up to three MIDI zones).

The VR-09 is less flexible here, but you can probably do what you want. As far as I can see, your user presets (Registrations) always send MIDI, so activating it isn't the problem, DE-activating it is.Like the Hammond, each user preset allows you to specify what channel you want to transmit MIDI on and what program you want to call up, but unlike the Hammond, you can't seem to turn it off altogether. So I think what you would do on the presets where you do NOT want to trigger the Kronos is that you would set it up to call up some Kronos preset on some channel that, itself, is silent. Also unlike the Hammond, whatever Kronos preset you call up will be triggered from the entire VR-09 range, you can't split the VR's keyboard into multiple zones (i.e. if you wanted to layer a Kronos and a VR sound over just a portion of the VR's keyboard). Though if you had need to trigger a Kronos sound over just part of the VR's range, you should be able to set the sound
up in the Kronos so that it would only play over a specified range of keys.

Anyway, you happen to have picked two areas where I think the SK1 outshines the VR... patch selection and MIDI control. Though the VR does have one MIDI advantage over the SK as well, in that it has pitch and mod controls. But if you're using pitch and mod controls, it means you're playing a one-handed part, and that being the case, you could just play that part on the Kronos itself.
---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
I'm not sure how you had yours set up but I don't think you had something set correctly. I have my SK-1 set up so that its keyboard usually plays the internal Extra Voices along with some of the Extra Voices in the XK-3c. Part of the lower manual of my XK-3c/System plays the upper manual of the SK-1's organ. I have the preset load parameters set so that pressing one of the Favorites buttons calls up the EV I want but none of the organ related settings change. The System expression pedal controls the SK's volume and everything works as one large instrument. I also have an old Hammond M2 with a line out that I run into the XK-3c effects return to the right of the System so I can play it along with everything else. It all works smoothly.

---In CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
About question 2 - the SK responds either to MIDI OR the keyboard  for the internal sounds to sound.  So if you set the SK to MIDI you can play it from the Kronos. But if want to play the SK keyboard it will not sound. You will have to go into the menu and change it from MIDI to internal so that it will sound. I had a sequencer palying the organ part on some songs (sk set to MIDI) and on other songs I played the organ 'live'. I had to switch the SK to internal to do this. Main reason I returned it. Nice sounding hammond sound and sim though. 
On Monday, October 21, 2013 11:06 AM, "jjmcs49@..." wrote:
>
>Thanks,
>Gene