From ccmacdon@rogers.com Mon Aug 12 06:33:50 2013
Subject:Re: Looking to replace my Roland VR-760. Roland VR-09 vs Hammond SK1. Pros/Cons?

Gene,  Sorry I'm a little slow to respond here.. things are a bit crazy here.. (wedding coming up this Saturday)..
 
I have a VR-09, and I have used it in my gig rig with my Korg Kronos a number of times, so I think I can comment on the issues and questions that you have... especially as it relates to the Kronos/VR-09 combination.
 
First.. if you've been using the Roland VK organ engine and you like the sound you will probably be quite happy the VR-09 organ, it's a bit better than the older version and the primary difference is the improved leslie sim.  Personally, I've never been a fan of the VK organ engine (and I think that's  a view that is shared by a number of folks on this forum) and it honestly took me a bit of time and tweaking to eliminate the "Roland" from the sound, but once I had figured the VR-09 out, getting a good organ sound was as simple as turning the tone knob all the way to the left and the compression knob almost all the way to the right, and the thing started to scream. It was like night and day.  The VR-09 organ does currently have a problem that the percussion circuit goes through the C/V. For some, who are very particular, this could be a deal breaker.  However, I didn't notice it until, someone pointed it out to me, so it's a subtle problem but
real none the less. There is an upgrade coming for the VR-09 that I hope will fix this issue, along with a few other issues, but the date hasn't been established yet and who knows what they'll fix.  
 
Here are my thoughts.. SK1 vs VR-09
 
I want to say right up front that the SK1 organ is better.. more authentic, and more tweakable, but how much better is the question? Some might say it's worth $500-1000 difference (depending on the deal available), but others might wonder why they're paying so much more for an SK1 when the extra voices on the VR-09 (including it's virtual analog synth) are so much better. (I'll get to that in a minute).  The SK1 is not without it's flaws or weak areas.. and the most obvious weak area is the Leslie Sim, and many SK1 owners are using the Ventilator, but it's another $450.. that said, the advantage goes to the SK1 when it comes to authentic organ sound and feel, but the VR-09 really isn't that far off the mark.
 
When it comes to the other sounds, I have to say that the VR-09 blows the SK1 away.. you might debate individual sounds, for instance, is the SK1 clavinet better than the VR-09 clavinet? Some might think so, some might not.. it's a matter of taste, but give me 15 minutes with a VR-09 and an SK1 side by side and I'll show you a dozen different sounds and examples where the VR-09  just kills the SK1.. warm strings (SK1 has no warm strings, what?), big fat brass sounds, and the Virtual Analog synth absolutely blows away the limited mini-moog samples in the SK1.  From what I can figure out, the VR-09 basically has a Roland GAIA synth built into it.   Try to combine acoustic piano and nice warm strings on an SK1.. you can't do it for two reasons.. first because there are no nice warm strings no the SK1, and secondly because you cannot combine/layer two non-organ sounds on the SK1.. this is a major limitation! On the VR-09 you have Roland's top of
the line sampled piano (although I can hear the loops) and the ability to layer it with their beautiful warm string samples..  The SK1 has a downloadable sample library, but I think it has a very limited library of available sounds.. I still don't think that there are nice warm strings available through the library. If Hammond Suzuki would improve this library (build something like the NORD library) this could be a major advantage, but as it stands, the SK1's downloadable sample capability provides limited advantage.  Just a quick note on the combo organ sounds on the VR-09.. uh.. not great.. they don't seem to have the bite that I would expect.  I haven't spent a lot of time trying to tweak them (using the editor or the effects) but they just don't seem to cut through the mix very well.. Maybe an OS update will improve them but as they stand I think they're pretty weak.
 
Build quality appears to be better on the SK1, but I'm not convinced that heavier gauge switches and knobs necessarily means more reliability. I bought an SK1 ($2000) and returned it within 24 hours because it was broken (noise in the extra voices), and my ($999) VR-09 has worked flawlessly right out of the box..  however, I would have to give the advantage to the SK1 here. Although, at the time that I bought my SK1, I think that there were quite a few issues with it.
 
The user interface on the SK1 is very workable.. and the typical Hammond parameters that you're looking for (c/v, percussion etc) are easily accessed with dedicated buttons.. for the most part this is true of the VR-09 as well, however several typical organ parameters are buried in the menus.. so for example you can turn percussion on/off with a button, but if you want to change from 2nd to 3rd harmonic on the fly, there are no dedicated buttons, so you have to dig into the menus (although when you push the percussion button the parameters appear on the display so you just move the dial). So the organ purist would prefer the SK1.. HOWEVER, the interface on the VR-09 is superb from a live performance perspective.. it's so easy to create splits and layers on the fly (although that's not how I use it, I create registrations in advance).. and playing with the live effects, like adding a ring modulator or a delay/slicer on your organ, is as easy as
turning a knob.. I think it was the keyboard magazine review that suggested that ALL keyboards should have this style of interface.. so I think that Roland has done a pretty good job here.. (albeit geared towards beginner/simplicity). There are a couple of things that aren't great about the VR-09 user interface.. the dial that is provided to change parameters is a little flakey, the effects are great but for the most the effects are fixed (you can only change one multi-effect) and you cannot change the order of effects, or dig too deep into effect parameters.. There are no up/down buttons that take you up down through registrations, although you can use the dial to do this (but it is a little sensitive, but it's a tad bit cumbersome to switch banks/registrations.. more than one time I found myself in the wrong bank playing the wrong registration, so you need to be a bit careful here)..  Neither is there any capacity to store or insert
registrations. This creates a bit of a problem if/when you want to reorganize your registrations (perhaps to correspond to set changes).. and you can store the 100 registrations sets on usb stick but you can't store/load individual registrations.. This makes organizing registrations very cumbersome.  I am pretty certain that this will be fixed in the next OS update because it's been announced that Roland will be providing additional synth sounds (for the VA synth engine) that need to be loaded in individually. 
 
The controller functions on the VR-09 are a bit limited and I would expect that the SK1 functions a bit better as a controller BUT this advantage is negated by the fact that  the SK1 has no pitchbend/modwheels..  The VR-09 has a joystick that controls pitchbend and modulation (as well as the D-Beam) so if you are planning to use the SK1 as a controller for your Kronos X1 you won't have a joy stick or pitch/bend mod wheels for your soaring synth leads.  Depending on your usage, this could be a big advantage for the VR-09.
 
Split/Layering.. as I mentioned earlier, the SK1 can split/layer two sounds at once, but one of those two sounds has to be the organ.. I see this as a major limitation.. I have numerous songs I play in my classic rock band where I want to layer two non organ sounds.. a piano and strings, or split electric piano and clavinet.. you can't do this on the SK1..  whereas on the the VR-09 you can.  Big advantage goes to the VR-09 here, at first glance.. However, in the area of split/layering, you get into the quirks of the VR-09.. The VR-09 has some design flaws, one of which is the inability to turn expression control off/on for separate parts of a split/layer. This is annoying for those of us who want to play piano on one part (without it being affected by the expression pedal) and weave organ in and out using the expression pedal on another part.. Another quirk of the VR-09 is that when layering another sound on the bottom part and the organ on the
upper part, the lower instrument will go through the leslie sim. The effects of the upper instrument are always applied to the lower part in a layer..  The other weird thing that I've encountered on the VR-09 is the fact that when using just organ, the VR-09 does not transmit velocity information (likely because the organ sound doesn't use the velocity data so it doesn't transmit it). So initially I didn't think that I could have organ on the VR-09 and layer acoustic piano from the Kronos with velocity, but as it turns out there is an easy work-around for this.. you simply create a "registration" that has organ and another sound layered with it and it transmits velocity.. turn the volume of the other sound down to zero and you have a registration that will play organ only but send velocity information to your other keyboard.
 
The VR-09 in combination with the Kronos works very well.. the Kronos is very flexible and with it you can work most of the quirks of the VR-09, for instance the expression pedal issue where you can't turn the expression pedal off for on part and not for the other. This is easily remedied by simply turning expression on, on the VR-09, but turn off the receive expression off the Kronos.. so the VR-09 then plays organ with expression, and acoustic piano (or whatever) from the Kronos without expression..  bottom line, the VR-09 works quite well as an organ, and also in combination with the Kronos using it as a controller to play/split/layer with Kronos sounds.  You will find yourself creating 4-5 different registrations that will cover most of the scenarios you need for playing organ solo, or various splits/layers using the Kronos.  I haven't tried syncing the Kronos program change to the VR-09 registration change, but I would expect that you can
probably set it up so that when you are in setlist mode on the Kronos and you move from one combination to the next it sends program/registration change to the VR-09 (or vice versa) but I haven't done that yet.  Bottom line, the split/layer quirks of the VR-09 are much less apparent when you're using the VR-09 as a controller in conjunction with another synth like the Kronos. 
 
So now the $64 question.. should you buy the SK1 or the VR-09.. well the SK1 organ sounds are excellent, and the VR-09 sounds very useable, and the difference between excellent and useable depends entirely on your ear and how particular you are. The SK1 has nice waterfall keys and a great keyboard feel (now that the trigger point can be changed), whereas the VR-09 has diving board keys and a keyboard feel that a lot of people don't like (although this is a matter of taste... I don't mind the VR-09 keyboard at all).  So I would have to say that if you're buying a keyboard that is primarily for drawbar organ and you're really particular about organ sound and feel, and less particular about the Extra Voices, you will probably lean towards the SK1 (or maybe the XK-1c?), and feel that the extra price is justified.  However, despite it's quirks, I think that the VR-09 beats the SK1 in almost every other area.. better sampled sounds sounds, cool
interface, joystick, built in virtual analog synth, free ipad editor etc.  and it has a very useable organ.
 
Gene, try the VR-09 first hand, to see if you like the sound (given the fact that you already use the VK engine, you'll probably like the VR-09 organ), and see what you think of the feel of the keyboard.. that's probably where you'll notice a big difference coming from the 760 which had waterfall keys and a nice keyboard feel.  The VR-09 will cost you a lot less, weigh a lot less, and give you a lot more/better non-organ sounds, but you'll make a bit of a compromise on the organ sound/feel, as compared to the SK1.  I bought my VR-09 as a backup keyboard and as a keyboard for really small gigs or rehearsals where I don't want to bring my "A" rig (mojo/kronos).. Given all of it's sonic capability it can backup either my Kronos (for pianos/ep's/synths etc) or my Mojo (drawbar organ).. Obviously this $999 keyboard doesn't sound quite as good as either my Mojo or my Kronos, but in a pinch, or for a small gig, it's perfect. 
 
Now all that said, as much as I love the value in the VR-09, I'm very fussy about my organ sound/feel which is why my primary instrument is the Mojo. I didn't buy the VR-09 as my primary organ because the sound feel is not quite there (not for a fussy guy like me), but it's EXCELLENT value.. and a great choice for anyone looking to reduce the size/weight of the rig, or someone looking for their first all-in-one keyboard with a drawbar organ. I had no problems getting through a number of gigs with the VR-09 and my band mates thought it sounded great (and carrying the 12 pound VR-09 was liberating experience).. However, I have to say that the last two gigs I used a Mojo, and the guys said " your mojo sounds great, we're glad you're back using it again"..   so the VR-09 really isn't quite up there with the top clones available today, but as a drawbar organ but it's great value, and you get all these other sounds and features thrown in..
 
Gene, I hope this answers your questions and helps with your decision.. sorry for the long winded note.. but you asked..  ;-)
 
Regards,
Craig MacDonald


________________________________
From: Brian Fuller
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2013 7:45:09 PM
Subject: RE: [CWSG] Re: Looking to replace my Roland VR-760. Roland VR-09 vs Hammond SK1. Pros/Cons?

 

I haven't played a Numa or a Mojo but for what it sounds like he's looking
for I think the VR-09 would be perfect. I was blown away by the VR-09 and
for the money the piano sounds are worth that alone not considering it has a
boatload of PCM, B3, transistor, a virtual analog synth, etc., etc. and it
weighs next to nothing.Craig is also a big fan and an actual owner.

Brian In Ohio




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