From djacques@csulb.edu Wed Feb 27 09:48:31 2008
Subject:RE: Organ Ignorance in Big Box Stores

I read that this is the main reason why Gilmore refuses to play with Waters.
due to Waters' cruel treatment of Wright during The Wall and Animals. Sad.



_____

From: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of tonysounds
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:03 AM
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [CWSG] Organ Ignorance in Big Box Stores



I didn't say his work was weak; I said it's his "weakest work". A not so
fine point. Rick is a great player, one of my heroes, but when you look at
his work as a whole, some things stand out more than others. He's a truly
underrated rock organist, but The Wall (while certainly having fine moments)
isn't his best work. And unfortunately, it's hard to tell what of that is
actually his playing, because he was ghosted by other players extensively.
(Remember, this was the album that got him fired.) But I love the guy, and
he was the reason I went to see Floyd on Momentary Lapse of Reason
tour....because he was playing. And he was fantastic with Gilmour last year
(full "Echoes"!!). But he has never been the same since The Wall....he's
tentative, and undeservedly unconfident (which is why Jon Carin is always
there).

Those must have been some incredibly ugly sessions.
T

Tyrone Lumley
yahoo.com> wrote: Wow, that's weak ?

The palm smear, growl, leading up to the guitar solo in Hey You is flat out
hair raising. Lot of good back ground stuff too with the leslie slowing down
and speeding up. Hell, the opening track (in the Flesh) has some really good
Hammond work.

Rick's one of my heroes as far as comping and soundscapes. Real ambient,
backgound kind of stuff. (But you miss it if it's not there). A real change
from guys that are all chops like Emerson, Rudess, Etc.

Anyway, I digress.....

tonysounds com> wrote:
You're right, I misread your originating posting. But as for Rick, that's
some of his weakest Hammond playing on The Wall. The stuff he did on
DarkSide obviously is fantastic (especially those little moments that happen
only once, like the little pinging percussion arpeggio in Breathe (reprise))
. I love the Hammond work on Animals and Meddle....THAT was Rick on all
cylinders.

T

Tyrone Lumley
yahoo.com> wrote:
I didn't say rare, I said prominent.

Boston, Kansas, Yes, EP, some Styx, some Zep, Santana, etc are bands that
"fetaured" the Hammond sound.

Most other times, it's a comping instrument. A very good one at that.
And actually, if you listen closely to The Wall, the playing is VERY
tasteful, and rarely in your face.

tonysounds com> wrote:
The reason Hammond is so weak in The Wall was because Wright had such drug
issues that he wasn't carrying his weight, and he was being ghosted all over
the place. There's more Prophet 5 sync tones than b3 tones on that record.
But to say Hammond is rare in rock isn't quite accurate: Eric Clapton
(everywhere in every period), ELP, Sheryl Crow, Wallflowers, Steve Winwood
(all periods except maybe Arc of A Diver), Counting Crows, SRV, Bruce
Springsteen, Widespread Panic, Allman Brothers, Phish, String Cheese
Incident, Gov't Mule, Bonnie Raitt, again, legacy acts, but almost all of
these are current touring acts, and all have used the B since day one. The
Hammond is very prevalent in the jamband scene, and other roots-oriented
musics where "authentic" instruments are being played by 'real deal'
musicians to create 'real deal' music.

Tyrone Lumley
yahoo.com> wrote: He wasn't flat.

The DA convertor used to play the sample was set at the wrong sample rate ;)

*runs away from ensuing debate*

Seriously though, unless it's John Lord, Hammond in rock is rarely
prominent. Listen to Rick Wrights parts in The Wall, for example.

What's funny though, is all the bands I've everplayed with, notice a certain
lack of "depth" and "fullness" when the keyboards aren't there.....

As far as the topic. I walked into Guitar Center and told them I wanted the
Electro they had in stock.They had it out of the box, and hooked up to an
amp for me to play/demo when I got there.

There WAS a chopped B-3 in the Vista/san Marcos Guitar Center a while back.
Hooked up to the leslies and all, powered up & just waiting for me to sit
down.

There are NO organ clones at my local Guitar Center. Just the usual Motifs,
M3s, etc.....

My 2c

David Jacques edu> wrote:
Damn. if most people did not notice Eddie VanHalen playing a half-tone flat
during an entire performance of "Jump", do you think they will notice a
missing Hammond part?

_____

From: CloneWheel@yahoogro ups.com
[mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogro ups.com]
On
Behalf Of tonysounds
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:49 AM
To: CloneWheel@yahoogro ups.com
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Organ Ignorance in Big Box Stores

I just mentioned the Foos cuz I saw them...and it was great to hear the
Electro used THAT WELL!

In fact, I mentioned to my buddy "look, they brought the B3 and a leslie, he
played 3 songs. He disappeared for the next hour, then appeared down on the
satellite stage with the band on the Electro for 4 songs, sounded great,
then "bye!". The B3 itself, to my accounting, was a huge waste of money in
this case. (Should have brought 2 Electros!) The Foos new stuff has lots of
keyboard things happening (as does the new Chili Peppers stuff), not
necessarily just Hammond. I was glad to see the addition, but if he were to
get sick, the show would work fine.

Not a lot of young bands are Hammond-y, mostly legacy acts. But we know
this! My favorite stunt is going into the music store, getting board with
all the workstations, going over to the Electro, manipulating it, making it
sound great, perking up the ears of the staff..and then changing the patch
back to its stale preset! HA!

Bruce Wahler s.com>
wrote: Hi All,

Looking at it from the mainstream perspective:

- Keyboard players are a small percentage of musicians as a whole, way below
guitarists.

- Organists are a small percentage of keyboard players, far below piano and
synth players.

- As stages and compensation has shrunk, keyboard players are looking for
all-in-one solutions, rather than "best of breed" products.

Given all that, is it any surprise that few MI stores carry drawbar organs?

While Tom T may have overstated the Nord-is-a-synth case, I understand where
he's coming from. An Electro is a digital keyboard that emulates the Hammond
Organ, among other things. So is a Motif 6. To the members of this list, the
differences are night and day, but try to convey that to a novice, in two
sentences or less. Yeah, the Electro is a much more accurate, versatile
organ emulator -- but the Motif does WAY better brass. You can't win that
argument in the 5 minutes MAXIMUM that you'll have the attention of a
prospective keyboard buyer in a big MI store. To many buyers, if it doesn't
have strings and hammers, then it's a "synth." Thus, a VK-8 is a "funny
synth with a weird control surface." ;-)

Walk into your average keyboard department, and you'll find that 95% or more
of the people fit into three categories:

1. The guy/girl who has taken serious music lessons, probably on piano.
She/he runs through the various patches on the keyboard, playing the same
song on each of them -- usually some complex Bach or jazz piece that shows
off the chops.

2. The total novice player, who tends to mostly run through the "cool
sounds" banks. He/she might not even BE a keyboard player, perhaps a
producer, guitarist, or drummer looking to expand their sonic palette.
Keyboards that do a little of everything, including arguably non-musical
sounds, are a big attraction.

3. The bored sales staff, who wish they could move to the guitar dept.,
where the REAL sales are happening! ;-)

----------
And finally, while bands like the Foos might tour with a 'B player, it's
more of an icing on the cake thing than an integral part of the sound.
Quick, name me three Foo Fighters songs that would sound ridiculous without
the Hammond Organ part? If Rami Jaffee had come down with a sudden case of
flu and missed the gig, would more than 1-2% of the audience even notice?

Hammond Organ has always had a PR problem in the rock world. Even in the
heyday of ELP, Yes, etc. very few people new what that instrument up on the
stage was. And let's not even start with "that spinney thing in the old
furniture cabinet" (my teen-years drummer's exact words).

Regards,

-BW
--
Bruce Wahler
AshbySolutions.comT
978.386.7389 voice/fax
bruce@ashbysolution s.com

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"You don't get tone on a diet." -T
"Hitting 'play' does not constitute live performance." -T
www.myspace.com/tonyorant

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"Hitting 'play' does not constitute live performance." -T
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