From diversiorgan@yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 05:28:13 2008
Subject:Re:Diversi Organ Vs Hammond
Tony.
I am not disagreeing with you. I am just stating what I know from first hand experience. The problem stems from ignorance on the part of the MI stores that hire clerks and the lack of product training. There seems, IMHO, there is more of a perception in the MI stores that the Nord is a synth. The younger the person that is waiting on you the less they know anything about a drawbar keyboard. And if you find someone that does... WOW! They are a rare gem.
More education about the drawbar organ is what is needed. It's a shame that there is still this perception in the general public that the organ is this thing that you hear at church and/or that it's something my Grand Parents own and they play this really bad music.
Regards,
Tom Tuson
----- Original Message ----
From: tonysounds
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 1:25:36 AM
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re:Diversi Organ Vs Hammond
Forget the people working in the stores, they don't know anything, and it was either GC, SamRash, or Burger King. Let's not perpetuate their ignorance here on this list. The C1 is a clonewheel, not a synth. And we all know this.
Thomas Tuson wrote: Tony.
In the case of the C1 it is viewed, by many of the younger people that work in retail MI stores, more as a synth. I shop MI stores and I am always amazed at the level of ignorance when it comes to a drawbar products and the comments. Pick a MI store that doesn't know you, walk in and play dumb and ask to see a drawbar keyboard.... You will be amazed. More often then NOT you will get someone that has that dear in headlights look. Maybe, if they have half and idea they will try and show you something with a drawbar patch. Had one guy pitch me on a Roland sythn because they make the XK for Hammond Suzuki and it has the same sound.
One of the reasons why many of you turn to each other and to Steve at SpeakEasy is because of trying to find "that sound."
Believe me... After working for company where the engineers develop a sound engine and system then they say, "Here this is what it will do now you tell us what to change." Then when you ask for a change then have them come back and say, "Oh! We can do that because. . . . . " Fill in the blank...
Everyone involved with this project is a musician. Most are organ players so it makes it easier to do things. However, the two markets between here in the US, which has two distinct markets and Europe has it's market. As an example the Europeans, not all, but many think we are lazy because we want transpose. However, we have transpose.
Again, Thanks for your comments,
Tom
----- Original Message ----
From: tonysounds
To: CloneWheel@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 8:11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re:Diversi Organ Vs Hammond
I hope it (The DV) does show up in stores; I'm really interested in the product, and think a really well done organ clone could clean up! And I think it's imperative that it has demo visibility in stores for its success....at least in terms of non-ministry working musicians.
I'm still confused by your terminology of top only products. What does that mean? I'm obviously not on the same wavelength, because when you say 'top only', I think VK7, not VK77 (Vk7 being single manual, VK77 being double manual).
As for the C1...it's no closer to a synth than the DV. Both items are chasing the Hammond sound; while the C1 does other organs, it's not doing synthesizers or pianos or strings. Both are modeled (I believe). It's just the interface is unorthodox for the typical Hammond enthusiast, but all the same controls (not surfaces!) are there: percussion, C/V, etc., And of course, so are the artificacts (leakage, overdrive, key click). It's just a different interface, but no less a clonewheel than B4, EVb3, or the V5 or VK8m.
As for Danny Federici's organs, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Given a choice between a clonewheel and a well maintained tonewheel, most would go Tonewheel. Jon Lord used an Xb2 on top of his Hammond as a synth controller, maybe Danny was doing the same thing. In Hopper's case, like many touring bands, it's just not practical to be touring with a real Hammond and leslie; the touring economy has changed a lot, and unless you're a top tier artist (like Bruce, Petty, Clapton, Sheryl Crow, etc.) or a 2nd tier artist (Deep Purple, Fogerty, pick your guy) who is travelling with stage, lights, sound, and backline, it's just not feasible. Those on a lower rung who are touring with backline only and 2 crew guys, and generally neither of those is a Hammond specialist who can keep that bad boy running like a Harley! Gear is going in a trailer behind the bus, or in many cases, under the bus. (That's how I was travelling the last few years,
but I'm a fascist,
and demanded my chop and leslie go underneath. But even I began to acquiesce the more I moved my gear, and was okay with using a clone and leslie. Thank God for Steve Hayes and SpeakeasyVintageMus ic....because not only did his preamps make it more believable for me as a player, but his kindness and generosity in taking my phone calls at inopportune times "Dude, she's dead!!! What do I do? *sniff* were indispensable. )
But we've digressed... .we're talking about clones, regardless of who the player is. Even Joey D obviously has found the clone to be a very viable alternative. I hope to see the DV soon, in Chicago, and when you have it here, please let me know as I don't see a trip to Philly in my less-than-immediate future.
Hey, you know, I'm a fetishist for things Hammond, right?? :-)
T
Thomas Tuson wrote:
Tony... I think you are not understanding what I said. The Nord is only what it is by nature and it is closer to a synth. Even the look and how it functions. Yes, it's hot right now. But I remember when they started. I thought they were pretty cool. They couldn't get anyone to stock them.
Your are correct in that the Korg BX3. That is what I was referring to. The BX3 as well as Roland VK-77 were offered as a top only product. The VK88 is offered as a top only prouduct. I should know, I sold Roland and still do sell Roland products. AlsoKorg offered me the line as well in our retail store. The same even held true for the Viscount 2 keyboard drawbar organ, it could be purchase as a top only.
Understanding the 2 markets here and in Europe. First in Europe they sell two keyboard clones "Tops" very easily as there are VERY few chopped Hammond's there and I might add that they aren't cheap, the chops that is. This is because Europe dosen't have the access to the number of used organs that we do here. Here.. You can still find chopped organs at some great prices. And you see it here all the time someone finds and organ or gets one given to them and they ask about how to do the repairs and even how to do there own home made chopped organ. But when it comes to the US market and a two keyboard drawbar top only organs there is currently a big enough demand. Mostly because of chopped organs.
When it comes to the XK3 system as a full two keyboard unit there are VERY few stocked in stores where you can really go play and try them out.
You mention these groups that used the VK... You even said one HIDE the fact it was a Roland... How's this... I personally service the two B3's for E Street Band, you know Bruce Springsteen' s band. E Street has a VK-77 and it isn't even plugged in. But one of the two B's is used.
It will take some time for the DV-Solo to start to show up in retail stores.
Regards,
Tom Tuson
.
----- Original Message ----
From: tonysounds
To: CloneWheel@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 2:04:18 PM
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re:Diversi Organ Vs Hammond
The Korg BX3 (maybe you meant that, not Korg 2???), and Roland Vk77 and vk88¢s weren¢t kits you could buy in pieces, you bought the whole thing or none. The CX3, VK7 and VK8 were the single manual versions. So, to answer your question, in terms of the Hammond clone niche market, the majority of clones sold happened to be the single manual CX3, VK7 and VK8s. Why? Price, convenience, and of course, you could actually go see/play/hear/ audition them. While I¢m sure the numbers wouldn¢t have been huge, they might have sold more 2 manuals (BX3, VK77 and VK88) if people could have seen them. I actually saw a few VK77s on the road (Sean Hopper of Huey Lewis & The News had one hidden in a Hammond shell). The Key 5 you couldn¢t find anywhere to audition or play. It¢s one thing to plop down $500-1500 for an instrument on faith, quite another to drop $3k or more. If the Key5 were available to experience, I think you¢d see more of
em. It¢s just the nature of the consumer
beast: you want to know WHAT you¢re getting. I think the Nord C1 will actually outsell any dual manual clone because they¢re actually putting them in stores. You can¢t just eliminate it because it has no drawbars; it has an alternative interface that may or may not be acceptable to some players, but the fact is, it¢s a Hammond clone that does a great job of producing ¡that sound¢. It¢s lightweight, affordable price tag, and market presence will set the bar for dual manual clones.
It will be interesting to see how things shake out.
T
T
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