From tonysounds@yahoo.com Fri Nov 09 23:14:18 2007
Subject:Re: Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
Put like this, I agree, although I think we're dancing around the fire. When it gets down to it, I don't hear any artifacts, or issues with the ramp time, that draw their attention to me. That doesn't mean they don't exist, they just don't show up on my radar. YMMV. I pulled Eric Johnson into the discussion for that same reason. While I actually believe he is on to something with the "no alkaline" battery thing (it stands to reason that the pedals he uses were made to that time period's specs, and of course they didn't have alkaline batteries then, so new battery technology may produce some artifacts in those pedals he doesn't like), the whole positive ion cable thing just seems Extremist with a capital EX. However, just because I can't hear those things he's noticing certainly doesn't mean they don't exist, only that they don't show up on my radar. As such, they don't inhibit my use of the instruments. And as Bruce so sagely pointed out earlier, many times the
undesired (by the designer/engineer, or other musicians) artifacts produced are not noticed by other musicians, or taken as part of a picture, and utilized.
I'm one of those guys who thinks the original Motif sounds better than the ES or XS, so I don't adhere to any philosophy of "newer=progress" much less "older=better" either. Some newer stuff IS an improvement, some vintage stuff IS better.
In this case, I'm enthusiastically jumping up and down over the RB3c as it gives me more performance hands down, and in an arguably more portable package.
I have enjoyed this thread so far. Debate and discussion is good!
T
goffmac747@aol.com wrote:
I hear you but I think the issue started as a definite sound meaning, the ramp up and down speed of a normal leslie vs. the leslie I heard on Dave's clip. With emphasis on the sound I heard from Dave's clip!
You made the comment that improvements such as speakeasy's rotor drive design and how if Hammond and Leslie were here today they would have done things differently other than what they had to work with back in 1950.... Then you mentioned about Fender's G&L line. So if you follow the thread of thought, it wasn't putting words in your mouth, it was addressing the idea, that were Don and Laurens here now, they might have made innovations in their designs but as in Leo Fender's case, his new designs did not jumpstart and/or undo the popularity of his older designs. Hence popularity in this context means the popularity of the typical leslie sound that not just any innovation? can knock it off it's pedestal, and render it not to be seen as the force to be reckoned with. Same as Leo's ASAT. Great guitar, but most prefer the older sound. I never intended a red herring and actually I think I'm clear on fallacies of argument. If anything I sense a Converting a Conditional...
-----Original Message-----
From: tonysounds
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 5:10 am
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re: Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
Read my post again: that's EXACTLYwhat I saying, those were all Don Leslie products, and as such, they weren't all great, at least by our standards. (You mentioned also-rans, I was indicating that many of Don's products were also-rans too.) I know for a fact those leslies sucked cuz I owned a 720, a 910, an 860, a 21H, 2x122s, a 147, and 2x 25s that I converted to 122s. So please don't put words in my mouth.
I knew you would point to the popularity of G&L vs. Fender: but that is a red herring. We're weren't discussing "popularity", I was pointing out that the engineers themselves constantly evolved their design, they never sat on "THIS IS THE ONE!".
That's all I'm saying.
goffmac747@aol.com wrote:
Myopics notwithstanding, Leo's newer G&L line, although a great line does not have the popularity of his "older" line. Fine guitars, new systems of doing things, but how many guys do you see slinging an Asat instead of a Telecaster, a Legacy instead of a Strat or a G&L 2000 instead of a Fender Jazz or Precision. And to retort to your clarity of a 122 for every 720 and a 147 for a 25, hello, they are ALL Don's leslies. Not one of those models you mentioned was another brand. I sense a Straw man fallacy here...
-----Original Message-----
From: tonysounds
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 4:35 am
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re: Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
Not sure what you're saying there, but let's be clear: for every 122, there's a 720. For every 147, there's a Model 25. (In other words, not everything Leslie made was Great.)
We do agree on one thing: the archetypical leslie sounds were Don Leslie's. If I wasn't clear, what I was saying was that Don (and Laurens Hammond, Leo Fender, Bob Moog) all used the materials of the day. When it came to update their product line (which all did), very rarely did they continue to use the same materials that they had 10 20, 30, even 40 years previously. Why? First, they were smart (not everything "vintage" is great, just as not everything "state-of-the-art" is great), but secondly, they were constantly evolving.
So we don't get myopic about the whole thing, look at Leo's G&L product line; all his great ideas were still in place, but all were improved upon. Bob Moog's Voyager is pretty impressive as well.
Just a little perspective. But again, I'm looking at the big picture: the RB3c is literally the best leslie I have ever owned or heard, and is without a doubt, the MOST versatile.
T
goffmac747@aol.com wrote:
One must consider that many "leslie" clones were made with all sorts of systems and materials. But only Don's leslie made it to the forefront. So to that fact, goes the healthy realization that the ideal rotating speaker sound was Don's system and everyone else's were also rans...hence Don's system and the sound he got out of it,? is the model and sound to improve on, if at all possible.
-----Original Message-----
From: tonysounds
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 1:53 am
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re: Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
?
Don't forget, these engineers (Hammond, Leslie) worked with the materials available to them. It's doubtful if they were to design a new version of their product that would be using the parts they chose in 1950.
.
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