From goffmac747@aol.com Fri Nov 09 12:09:15 2007
Subject:Re: Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
Some things are worth experimenting on, some things not. I did notice the spin on the rotors was more smooth. That I'm all for, like watching the transports on a Scully 2 inch 24 track machine, vs a Soundcraft 2 inch. Like comparing a cheap car to a Cadillac. Now just imagine a horn that was machined out of a solid block rather than cast. I know that previous leslies were made with existing materials. That's a given. Modern technology allows us to make things better. A more balanced horn would surely add to the sound. I have no qualms with the rotation, just the speed at which it moves. Actually I heard the clips before I was able to view them because it took too long to load for me to view them. The speed of the rotors was obviously one that accelerated too fast.
I remember when I was 15 years old, my first Leslie was a Fender vibratone. You know, the single foam rotor, guitar leslie. I ran a Fender Contempo thru it. I didn't like the way the foam rotor ramped as it did not have a horn. it was too slow, but duh, it was a "bass rotor" not a treble rotor. So I decided to try and change the motor. It ramped up all right, too fast and the tremulant sound was also too fast. Sounded like a vibrator more than a voice.
Ok be that as it may that the new horn is better balanced, that is a plus already and an improvement worth the time and effort. Now what would that new balanced horn sound like on a two motor, cloth belt, idler pulley set up? You don't need to see something to hear it. I don't own any Speakeasy products but I'm willing to listen. And I have been listening for a while. And so far I wouldn't get much use out a leslie that has ramp speeds like that. I'm as open minded as the next guy and am actively looking for any improvements as long as it adds to the sound.
It's not a cut and dried issue of taking note of comments made pro- experimentation and pro- traditional and then lumping them all together without qualifying what was really discussed. A well balanced metal horn made out of brass is one thing, a rotor speed that sounds unnatural is another thing. Lumping the two as if to say, so now you're all for traditional and before you were so gung ho about experimentation, is to miss the point..
And is sounding a bit ad hominem, wouldn't you think?
Improving the leslie so that it's sound is more natural is different from, improving it to the point that it goes overboard and does not sound natural. Being innovative is not the only criteria for success. Otherwise the Guitorgan would be on every record that needed a B3 sound. Why lug a B when you could "B" lugging a guitar that sounded like a "B."
Now if the single motor, "O" ring system can at least copy the natural leslie sound as it ramps, and then be tweaked for the extreme it is now, then you would have my attention. But until then, back to the drawing board boys....
-----Original Message-----
From: tonysounds
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 1:53 am
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re: Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
The two sided horn only generates tone out of one side (as you know). The other side was put on for visual aesthetics and/or balance. Speakeasy addressed the balance issue, and in fact, their horn is much smoother in terms of tone and in terms of travel. It's DIFFERENT, but in no way inferior. Aerodynamically speaking, don't watch the "wings", watch the flight. You'll see it's actually a much more level pattern than the plastic 2 horn.
It's funny watching these threads....you've got people espousing "try something different" , "this is how innovations happen", "the leslie wouldn't be what it is if Don didn't try", and yet here the same list pulls an about face and says "the traditional is the only way" without even having heard or seen it in person. Don't forget, these engineers (Hammond, Leslie) worked with the materials available to them. It's doubtful if they were to design a new version of their product that would be using the parts they chose in 1950.
Speakeasy has done an incredible job of tapping into what makes the leslie so great, and in fact has had superior results in maintaining the leslie tone/efficiency/quality aesthetic, especially when compared to its competitors, including the one that owns the “leslie” name. If I’m biased, it’s because I’ved owned everything else, including vintage, and this has been the truest recreation of the real deal, yet has improved upon the “ideal” in terms of reliability, portability, and probably longevity (service life of product).
goffmac747@aol.com wrote:
Yup , tone is always king. I have never played a 147 but I hear they ramp faster. The ss relay from EIS is said to approximate the ramp of the 147. Haven't tried it tho, so I don't know. I know all leslies sound different just as all organs do. Like you, I'm a leslie switch fiend. I noticed the top rotor "getting there" too quick on Dave's clips. I was really curious to hear the two rotor set up and all the new stuff from speakeasy. I'm glad Dave took the time to do all that. Specially since Speakeasy products are not available everywhere. But I think there's going to be a YMMV take on the "O" ring. Right now I'm listening to Ryan's "Bless The Lord" clip and I'm enjoying the classic sounds plus the type of music, an XK3 thru a 142..Sounds like how a leslie should ramp, to me. Like at chorale, the top rotor should not slow down too fast, and the bass rotor trails in just the right fashion whether ramp up or ramp down.? The XK3 and Ryan's playing sounds Hammond to me...
I'm a rocker but I learned to appreciate organ at church. And a leslie was the most fascinating part of the organ to me. I wonder what a combo of a regular top rotor set up and the "o" ring top rotor would sound like as a two top rotor rig? Like using two different type speakers in a 2x12 guitar cabinet, it adds and takes away from the same-y-ness.
Speakeasy metal horn? Do? they have a pic of it on their site?? I think the normal balanced two sided horn is the only way to go. It's not just counterbalancing weight that's an issue, it's also aerodyamics plus a "what's on the left, should also be on the right." I sort of liken to watching a graceful bird in flight trying to land. It's wings and tail do different compensating actions depending on it's rate of descent and the wind speed. The many parts of the leslie is what makes it so magical as mechanical and electrical things are going on and are always varying. Learning to tap that is the secret.
-----Original Message-----
From: tonysounds
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:56 am
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re: Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
I see what you're saying.
As with everything else clone-related, YMMV. I don't experience that, or am unmolested by any changes.
However, Dave had also modified his Convertible by using the dual plastic horns; they actually come with a Speakeasy horn made of metal (which is damped and tuned inside) that is a single counterbalanced with a weight. Obviously there's a difference in weight there. Maybe that's an issue.
I didn't notice anything being awry with his clips; I only listened to them once, but they seem "right" to me. (Every leslie I've ever owned has been different from each other, evidenced when setting up all together at really big gigs.) My own leslies sound great to me too, and I haven't noticed any strangeness with ramp times. However, I constantly am toggling those speeds as I like the in-betweens more than the destination times.
And for comparison, check out the difference in ramp times for a 122 and a 147. I will say the Convertible seems a little more 147-ish, but again, it's never been an issue: I like the in-between speeds, I adjust, and frankly.....it's all about TONE!
T
goffmac747@aol.com wrote:
I don't know if my last post made it to the list.
I sent it a while ago. For some reason it has not shown up yet so I'll just copy paste it here and see what happens..:
you wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Stroup
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:49 pm
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Re: Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
goffmac: I'm confused too about what you were saying about the rotors
being out of sync. They're supposed to be out of sync. Even the rotors
on an actual Leslie were out of sync. Because the lower rotor is much
heavier, it's going to have to play catch-up with the horn. Without some
sort of modification to mechanically link the two motors, it would be
impossible to keep the rotors in sync. That would sound nasty anyway.
-----Original Message-----
From: goffmac747@aol.com
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:46 pm
Subject: Re: [CWSG] Fwd: Decimator web page up with sounds
What I meant was, on a
normal leslie the two rotors have this certain sound when they go
through the speeds. That's why I put the word "sync" in quotes because
obviously they are not in sync, meaning precisely moving together.
Obviously they move independently of each other. But using the regular
two motor, cloth belts, an idler pulley, which is spring loaded, on the
top rotor gives the overall sound a more normal leslie sound. To me the
fact that the top rotor is on a rubber "O" ring which for all intents
and purposes is a rubber band that is taut and exhibits way? less
slippage, changes the character of the leslie. It's too
efficient. Looks like wings on a hummingbird in those videos. It moves
faster than normal and it does not wait for the lower rotor to catch up
before it reches top speed
Hence it's not "in sync" as far as a regular leslie sound goes. I feel
the "O" ring misses much of the in between sounds of a leslie taking
off or slowing down. And perhaps the single motor adds to the problem.
The fact that a single motor is turning at a certain speed, it must
over come it's own inertia to change speeds, and must have a little
more torque as a motor in order to compensate for being one motor
whereas the normal two motor does not have to do that. On a normal
leslie you have one motor "off" and slowing down and the other "on" and
kicking in. There is an added character to that mechanical effect of
the two motors interacting with each other. Added slippage if you will.
There is such a thing as spinning too fast too soon and
with that rubber supercharger belt on there, it will just keep spinning
faster. If the charm of the leslie is the take off and descend, it has
lost that with that set up. I changed the spring relay on my 122 for
one of those electronic relays and I did not like it. Because the old
relay was worn out.The reaction time changed on the take off and
actually added an extra few milisecs of delay before the motors turned.
My new B3/122 came with a brake which had that tube relay going to
chorale before it fully braked. Yanked that tube out so that the coast
from fast to off was more graceful.
With an "O" ring single motor setup, it takes off like a dragster
burning nitro with bleached slicks......too abrupt... All the nuances
are gone.
The tone capabilites, portability and roadworthiness of the leslies is
fine. It's the ramp up, ramp down that I feel was over engineered.
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