From goodmanlawrence@videotron.ca Thu Jul 26 10:44:55 2007
Subject:RE: The Perfect Clone (Was: XK-3 software update)

HI Bruce,

Points well taken.The clone market has it’s restrictions.Please check my
previous
(a few minutes ago) posting.The possibilities are as vast or resriticted as
the market potential.



Lorrie



_____

From: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Wahler
Sent: July 26, 2007 9:07 AM
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [CWSG] The Perfect Clone (Was: XK-3 software update)



Hi Lorrie,

It's interesting to note that the two examples of companies both make the
sound system, not the organ itself. This is not to disparage either company;
I think that both Steve Hayes (Speakeasy) and John Fisher (Motion Sound)
make terrific products, and are very tuned to the needs of their respective
audiences. It does, however, point out that it's much easier to get one's
arms around the Leslie side of things -- in 2007, anyway -- than the organ
side.

Why is this? Well, it goes back to the #1 rule of business: The object of
the game is to make money, preferably lots of it. If a prospective customer
has decided that electronic Leslie simulation simply doesn't cut it, what
he/she probably wants is something that has a woofer and a tweeter, spinning
baffles, and some grind. (I'm discussing only organists' needs for the
moment.) Generally speaking, the customer base is "unified." This allows a
company like Speakeasy or Motion Sound to focus on a small array of customer
needs.

Move to the organ itself, though, and the picture loses focus. Some players
want absolute small size and low weight, and would trade off some original
look and feel for small size and a decent Leslie simulation. Enter the Nord
Electro and Voce V5/Spin II. Others would prefer to get as close to the
original look and feel, trading some weight and bulk to get there. So, we
have the BX-3 and XK System. Some want a little of both, a la the Nord C1.
Some want one manual, because they combine their organ with a piano or
synth; others want two identical manuals to play organ only. Some think that
drawbuttons are a step in the right direction (more immediate preset
control); others hate them. Thus, the "perfect" organ varies from player to
player. I haven't even begun to discuss the variations in different B-3's
that make the SOUND of the "perfect B-3" hard to nail. Sound it be dark or
bright? Lots of percussion, or more laid back?

Plus, there is a whole new generation of organ players who are coming of
age, and many of them recognize that the Hammond B-3 is NOT a "perfect"
instrument. (There, I've said it.) It's a WONDERFUL instrument, but it's far
from PERFECT. It has a number of flaws in its design, some of which players
have come to almost worship (key click, leakage). But aside from that,
here's a great example: the percussion switches. From a purely ergonomic
point of view, why are they way over on the right hand side, away from all
the other 'adjustment' controls? Answer: It was the only available space on
the B-2, the predecessor of the B-3, for four rocker switches of the size
found in 1955. So, should a 2007-era clone copy the earlier flaw (like
Korg), or try to put the functions in a better place (like Roland)? The same
is true for 1' cancellation when percussion is on -- not necessary by 2007
standards, but I like it -- and overdrive -- the classic volume-based growl
of a Hammond/Leslie
is counterintuitive to those who've grown up using synths and ROMplers.
There's no "correct" answer for everyone.

Add in a) the cost of gearing up for manufacture of a Hammond clone is
fairly high; and b) the market for > $3K (USD) instruments is almost nil,
and it's a wonder that we have ANY choices for a dedicated B-3 clone.
Frankly, I've been surprised that the offerings didn't stop after their peak
in 1999-2001 (XK-2, Key5, CX-3/BX-3, VK-7/VK-77, Electro). Software clones
have a big advantage because the cost of manufacture is lower; if a product
bombs in the marketplace, the developer loses many hours of programming
time, but little else.

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions_ HYPERLINK
"http://consult.ashbysolutions.com"http://consult.-ashbysolutions.-com
978.386.7389 voice/fax
HYPERLINK "mailto:bruce%40ashbysolutions.com"bruce@ashbysolution-s.com

At 08:02 AM 7/26/2007, Lawrence Goodman wrote:
>T,
>
>Maybe you can_t manufacture a beast like the B3 or yore for $1500. but I
>think a better job can be done.I really believe that the clone must be
>manufactured with a specific amp/leslie in mind.The opposite could work too
>as an amp/leslie should have a specific clone it is deigned for.
>
>Besides Speakeasy, I think Motion Sound is doing it right on the customer
>service side of things returning emails promptly and supplying what is
>needed to service their product.
>
>If we had a clone producer on their level we might be a lot closer.
>
>
>
> Lorrie
>
>
>
> _____
>
>From: HYPERLINK
"mailto:CloneWheel%40yahoogroups.com"CloneWheel@yahoogro-ups.com
[mailto:HYPERLINK
"mailto:CloneWheel%40yahoogroups.com"CloneWheel@yahoogro-ups.com] On
>Behalf Of tonysounds
>Sent: July 25, 2007 11:33 PM
>To: HYPERLINK
"mailto:CloneWheel%40yahoogroups.com"CloneWheel@yahoogro-ups.com
>Subject: Re: [CWSG] XK-3 software update
>
>
>
>I'm not arguing with you, we see eye to eye on this. Are there people doing
>things right? Yeah, SPEAKEASY VINTAGE MUSIC for one. It aint cheap, but
it's
>the shit, and its done right, and you get what you pay for. In
>HammondSuzuki'--s defense, you can't manufacture a beast like the B3 of
yore
>for $1500. But it doesn't have to cost $15k either.
>
>T
>
>Christian Schonberger >"mailto:c_schonber-ger%40yahoo.-com"c_schonberge-r@-yahoo.-com> wrote:
Point
>pricing? Sounds like marketing nomenclarure. I am very well aware of
>marketing strategies (I work as a composer in the tv commersdial field).
>What I will never understand is the immediate profit/chess game fashion
/low
>risk capital stock holder mentality. Are there any people left on this
>planet who like to do things right? Please don't reply: welcome to reality.
>I am very well aware of the way things work as we speak.
>
>I simply see lots of keyboarders in highly successful acts who use hammond
>sounds which are clearly supposed to sound like a vintage Hammond. It's not
>easy to haul around a 250 kg B3 on legs that need a custom cradle to
prevent
>them from breaking. C'mon this is 2007 - technology is 100% able to come up
>with something better than any available B3 clone. ..and they are on
demand..
>Lots of classic top pop/rock acts touring who rely on hammond sounds. They
>all use MIDI/module/--software stuff that doesn't even resemble a B3. What
>the heck is going on? I was so glad to see the keyboarder of Lenny Kravitz
>in Sao Paulo, Brazil during the Live Earth concert using a real B3. hammond
>organ for church music and old ladies only? No sir.
>
>Christian
>
>tonysounds "mailto:tonysounds%-40yahoo.com"-tonysounds@-yahoo.-com>
>wrote:
>Relax, they're not going to offer new actions on any of these keyboards.
>It's called point pricing.
>
>Christian Schonberger >"mailto:c_schonber-ger%40yahoo.-com"c_schonberge-r@-yahoo.-com> wrote:
Hmm... so
>what about all those people (including yours truly) who purchased a lower
>keyboard for the XK-3? I prefer two O.K. keyboards that are matching - over
>one supposedly superior one with a lower keyboard that has a different
>action. What's going on HS? Is the next step re-offering all lower
keyboards
>with the new, improved action? Sorry but I have mixed feelings about all
>this.
>
>Christian
>
>joek1000 wrote:
>The action is improved on the XK-1 and it sounds like the same
>improved action will be on the XK-3c.
>
>Joe
>
>--- In HYPERLINK
>"mailto:CloneWheel-%40yahoogroups.-com"HYPERLINK
"mailto:CloneWheel%40yahoogro-ups.com"CloneWheel@yahoogro--ups.com, "Chad
>Menge" wrote:
>>
>> I have debated whether to buy an XK-3 for a while. I had the Xk-2
>and
>> was moderately satisfied with it. I never used the leslie sim so
>that
>> helped. I currently own a BX-3 and I am happy with it. Every time
>I
>> play the XK-3, the action just leaves me cold. It feels really
>plastic
>> and cheap. No bounce and not meat to dive into. If they changed
>the
>> action on the XK-3C I would be tempted to switch from my current
>setup
>> (BX-3 and 3300). I have tried the new B-3 and the action is much,
>much
>> better due to the multiple contacts. I know it is a huge price
>> difference between the XK and the new B-3 but in my humble opinion
>the
>> action is what needs improvement on the XK-3.
>>
>> .
>>
>> "http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?"http://geo.yahoo.-com/serv?"HYPERLINK
"http://geo.yahoo.-com/serv?"http://geo.yahoo.--com/serv?
>s=97359714/-grpId=-418543/-grpspId=--1705031959/--ms
>> gId=45191/stime=--1185327688/--nc1=3848621/--nc2=4699084/--nc3=4670553>
>>
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