From larry.a.schurr@boeing.com Tue Nov 09 10:00:51 2004
Subject:Re: The allegation/Why did Hammond get the virtual B3 right?

Sorry Tony,
let's review.

Mitch said
"his biggest competition"
he did not say "big competition" nor did he just say 'competition'.
The XK is not "his biggest competition" so your assertion of "totally
wrong" is knee-jerk and innaccruate.
Any discretionary spending is 'competiton' to Voce (and Hammond). And
that certainly includes the XK. And while I certainly agree the XK
*will* become a major player, it isn't the biggest as yet.

And wasn't it you that told us the original shipment of XK's numbered
something like 1100? Ok, might notta been, just got that image in my
brain. Alla same, that's about the same number of members (of all
stripes, including -none-) we have. No, the numbers are just not there.
That original shipment sold out immediately yet only 2 or 3 of our
member got one. That's 400 to 1. Yes, those numbers have changed, but
the scale is off the chart. Only a small portion of players and users
appear on the web AT ALL, though this group, I suspect, accounts for a
majority number of those that DO appear on the web -- I agree with your
speculation there. But there's no chance it's "a majority" of the
overall consumer base.

Rumor propogation is something done by everyone on this list including
yourself. If you don't *know* something, or witness something, then
you're passing on rumor. So every assertion and every speculation you
purport (which is about the entirety of your post) is rumor in one form
or another. No one - including me - is holding your feet to the fire.
Why Dave?

But maybe somewhere along the lines, there is an expected conduct for
heads of companies. Ok, you can do that. Passing on rumor is
unacceptable for them, but totally acceptable for you. Ok, that's fine
too. It really is. But in so doing, you answered your own question
about who is "somebody" and who is "nobody". And if People magazine is
"ludicrous", just replace it with Keyboard magazine. Anyone cancel
their subscription because a writeup in Keyboard said "rumor has it
that..."? Nope. Talk about vested interest! But that's somehow
*within* their expected conduct and not within Dave's. Hey, that's cool
-- I just don't happen to agree. And I'll certainly be on the lookout
to see if you chastize every head of every company on this list that
offers any unsubstantiated opinion (rumor) or propogates gossip (rumor)
or if this is just being levelled at Dave. Nobody jumps on me when I
say "this is just a rumor, but...". But then again, I'm a nobody and
easily admit it.

And your ability to infer motivation may far exceed my own. I'll be the
first to admit being naive in such things. But with such a vast
difference in marketshare, distribution, and even name recognition, any
"fishy" motives to belittle Hammond seem trivial at best. Ok, it's
possible, but IMO a bit odd. After all, V5 vs. XK? That's hardly Ford
vs. Chevy. Arguably not even direct competition. But I suppose there's
something there to be gained by Voce -- but I just don't see it. So it
*could* be that it really IS a rumor going around amongst various
industry heads (which you and I are not, but Dave is). Dunno. Probably
not true, cuz after all, that's what rumor is -- but it ain't gonna get
solved here. If it's true, it'll get solved in Federal Court.

Funny thing about H/S: it ain't Hammond. I'm not so certain they "have
a little more insight into certain intrinsic qualities" any more than
Korg or Clavia or even Voce. Legal rights and technical ability are two
different things.

Well, I've PO'd enough people for one day.

L.



-----Original Message-----
From: tonysounds [mailto:tonysounds@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 11:04 AM
To: CloneWheel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CWSG] RE: The allegation/Why did Hammond get the
virtual B3 right?

Sorry, Larry; that's B.S.. I never heard that rumor before Dave
posted it here. I'm not saying he started it, but he sure did propogate
it.

As for market share, to say that the XK isn't competition for
the Voce would be in fact totally wrong; while the CX3, VK8 and Electro
are the biggest competitors (if you can call them competitors of
Dave's...it would seem that Voce's share of that market isn't as large
as their's) , there is no doubt that the XK3 will become a major player
in that arena. The XK2 and XB2 were huge players, and it could be
argued that the success of the XB2 was what prompted Roland and Korg to
get back into that particular game. (I suspect when crunching the
numbers, the Electro has a smaller share of that market as Korg and
Roland have the largest presence in the keyboard market, with their
products on display at every keyboard store online or in brick and
mortar establishments.)
This in no way assigns quality or superiority to any of the
instruments we're talking about, only the quality and superiority of
their marketing and distribution schemes. And I would beg to differ
that a large portion (maybe even a majority?) of the consumerbase of
this particular market (organ clones) are in fact on the web and likely
members of this group. The organ clone consumer base is a small
community, but obviously one worth catering to financially as we've seen
a proliferation of products directed mainly to us. As we have seen from
posts, many of us own more than one clone, making us repeat buyers.
Keyboard players do tend to be technology-friendly, and are seen that
way by manufacturers (Roland, Korg, Clavia, others). We have seen them
market their equipment online, and even run support groups themselves
for their products online.

But to get back to the original topic, whether the rumor
originated with Dave or not is almost irrelevant here. Propogating that
rumor is a suspect practice, especially when you happen to have a vested
interest in its outcome. The parallel thread Dave is heavily involved
in right now (the "controversy" of long-loop sampling vs modeling) seems
to indicate that Dave is very concerned for Hammond right now (I'm sure
it's a benevolent concern). And to rationalize that "hey, People
magazine does it" is not only ludicrous, but shows a lack of respect for
the intellect of everyone on this list. Starting off a thread with
"hey, its only a rumor, but I heard that...." doesn't absolve anyone of
the responsibility or the motivation of their actions. If it's really
the Dave Amels from Voce (which I have no clue on; this is not the kind
of practice I would have associated with someone of his character from
what I had seen ! on! line previously), then bringing that "rumor" up
out of the blue (it
did originate with him) seems a little contrived and not so
subtle either.

Regardless, it seems fishy.
T

PS....and what exactly defines someone as a "nobody" and a
"somebody?" The fact that you delineated a boundary indicates that
there would be a difference between someone with no vested interest in
the "rumor" (a "nobody" I presume") and someone who does have a vested
interest (a "somebody"? Or just somebody with a competing product?) Or
does "nobody" refer to some other quality we should be focusing on?

Funny how the fact that Hammond built the original product (B3)
and might have a little more insight into certain intrinsic qualities
seems to be forgotten in this "rumor"
thread.

"EXT-Schurr, Larry A" wrote:
Hmm... lessee...
Biggest competition? No, the Xk is far from the biggest
competition.
It commands a much smaller market share than Korg or Nord.
Majority of consumer base? No, the "majority" of consumer base
aren't
even on the web.
Unprofessional? Hey, a rumor is a rumor and he said so up
front. Would
it be *more* professional if some nobody like you or me threw
out the
rumor? No. Heck, there's lots of professionals that make a very
professional wage based solely on rumor -- ever read People
magazine?
Ease up, man. It's just talk.
L.


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