From DAVIDO@LYNXFS.COM Fri Oct 11 05:35:54 2002
Subject:Taming the CX3 - was Live Sounds

I think Behringer do an aural exciter. The rock band i play with use
one in the PA rig, but iv'e never taken much notice of what it
is/does: too busy trying to get a decent sound out of my rig. Getting
up-front with an organ sound in a rock lineup has always proved
difficult for me.
I started out with a Hammond Xb1 and H&K rotosphere and in some
venues this sounded great and really present, others it just
disapeared in a swamp of bass and middle. Then i got a Pro3T and the
mid range became even more muddy. Swapped the Xb1 for a CX3 and this
was too shrill and harsh. Adjusted down the treble on the CX3 and i
lost the top octave in a band mix and most of the punch. Added a
Speakeasy, which boosted the middle but still couldn't cut through at
the top end.
Last weekend, i tried a few presets with the treble set to 0, using
the Speakeasy straight into a solid state backline (no Pro3T), with
the Speakeasy treble set at about 12:00 and the volume Full On and
this worked pretty well. I could hear my solo's and didn't get any
complaints about piercing notes, and the middle sounded nice and full
so maybe i'm getting close to something that i'm happy with. The CX3
does seem to be a bit tricky to tame, much it's beauty gets lost if
you cut the treble too much, like the leakage, overtone, key click
and the percussion gets weak too. But if your running straight to a
solid state amp and don't cut it back some, then it'll hurt your ears
at stage volume. I've found that when i'm using the Speakeasy
however, i can boost the treble back closer to the factory settings,
provided i'm not using a Pro3T. (Using the factory presets with the
Pro3T is way too shrill... even with a Speakeasy)

Just maybe, adding an aural exciter into the chain, might promote
those frequencies that allow the organ to breath a bit, but still
enable you to cut the treble back enough to kill those killer
frequencies?. Last weeks gig has led me to believe that judicial use
of the Speakeasy and a more subtle reduction in treble on the board
provides the best results so far... still that was in that venue,
it'll probably be totally different again this weekend.

Dave

--- In CloneWheel@y..., "Larry Halpern" wrote:
> I've run into the same problem. Right now I'm doing jazz, but I
played rock
> gigs back in the 80s and it was virtually impossible to find a
factory
> preset that would get past the first 3 rows. More recently I played
in a 9
> person Afro-Cuban and had the same problem with piano sounds. I'm
thinking
> of putting together a large band and using my Voce V5 and hope I
don't have
> the same problem.
> My friend had a little box that boosted high frequencies that he
said helped
> with this. Something like an Aural Exciter but I don't remember the
name.
> Has anyone used something like this with any success. Not that I
want to
> have to go buy another piece of gear, but I'd like to know.
> Thanks!
>
> Larry Halpern
>
> >Tony touches on some important points here that I think are worth
exploring.
> For those of us who play in loud bands, the sounds we are forced to
use to
> cut through the din are most often not the most pleasing to the ear
when
> played alone in our home studios (read: spare bedrooms). Playing
at home or
> recording is an entirely different beast than playing out live.
Whenever I
> get a new piece of gear, if possible I try to set up my rig in my
house
> spread out over the living room and spilling into the dining room
while
> nobody's home. That way I can really crank it without giving
myself ear
> bleeding. I've found it's the only way I can see how the rig is
going to
> behave at the volume I'm usually playing at live; this really cuts
down on
> surprises when you get to the gig. Some gear really comes into
it's own as
> the volume kicks up; I've found my Speakeasy behaves like this.
While it
> made a very noticeable improvement the first time I hooked it up at
home,
> that weekend when I got it out to an outdoor gig and fed it some
serious
> signal it just came alive; the more you give it the better it
sounds. Last
> night at practice we were working on an original that called for a
very
> piercing clav part that I could barely stand to listen to when I
played it
> solo, but it fit wonderfully into the mix when everyone was
playing. Tony's
> right, pads are pretty in the showroom or with headphones on, but I
find
> them to be pretty useless when I play out. This is also why I set
the
> virtual mics very close on my CX-3's virtual Leslie; it's too
extreme for
> quieter solo playing, but works great in the band. Almost all
clones have a
> preset called "Gimme Some Lovin'" or "Deep Purple" that tries to
emulate
> major grunge. Well, Winwood and Lord didn't use any such preset,
they got
> that sound by pushing their gear to the point of breaking up,
something you
> can't very well do at home. I never use those presets (and we do
play Gimme
> Some Lovin' & Hush), instead I use my Speakeasy at a high volume to
get that
> tone, the way God intended for it to be done. I know most of this
doesn't
> apply to the Jazz and Blues heads who are playing their clones at
> "reasonable" volumes, but IMHO, Rock organ, and Rock keyboards in
general,
> requires a palette of cutting sounds played at a significant
decibel level
> that can compete with the rest of the band. And yes, I can still
(mostly)
> hear.>
>
> "I could be wrong, but I'm not." ---Don Henley
>
> Ed Fliege
> k2mojo@g...
> www.groovedaddies.com
>
> > These things were all satisfying to me in varying
> > amounts in my studio. But live??? Deficient.
> > Absolutely. I've come to the realization with this
> > clone thing that I came to with many popular synth
> > products. Most times when I go see bands, the
> > keyboard player tends to be invisible aurally. Not to
> > bash any particular products by name, but you see some
> > popular items in the store, and you go check em out.
> > (Screw it, I'll name one) The Triton for instance:
> > you play it, and it has some gorgeous textures in
> > there, 3 dimensional things that just totally blow you
> > away. But if you can even find a context for 1/4 of
> > those sounds you'll be lucky (or doing film work).
> > Those huge pads do NOT cut through elec guitars, mic'd
> > drums, etc. Now, go find an old Minimoog, or better
> > yet for this example, a Jupiter 8 or 6. Those 2 units
> > were groundbreaking for their time (so was the mini).
> > But if you played them next to a Triton, you'd go
> > "ecchhh!" And probably not buy them. But take them
> > to a gig, and all of a sudden, that not so pretty,
> > almost dirty grainy sound not only is heard, but
> > actually finds its own sonic niche. Is it only
> > because they're analog? I think it goes back to the
> > actual sound they produce. The prettier and nicer the
> > texture, the more polite, it's almost like sonic
> > Darwinism. It's survival of the fittest. And that's
> > what happened in my experience with these clones. Why
> > does everyone go back and say "my V5 is still smokin?"
> > It's not a pretty sound, but it is actually the most
> > realistic and most ballsy. When I packed my CX3 up,
> > and fired that V5 up, I was smiling instantly. Yes,
> > the chorus isn't right...the percussion is a little
> > weak, but the drawbar sound is correct. There are no
> > sonic deficiencies in its core sound. The CX3 had the
> > prettiest most real chorus, it sparkled in all the
> > right places (that's what made me crate up my XK2 and
> > sell it), but when it came to the gig, all that
> > prettiness made it get eaten up by everything else, no
> > matter HOW I eq'd it. And shrill doesn't mean cut to
> > me...shrill means....S H R I L L. The XK2 through the
> > leslie didn't leave me wanting for something like a
> > tube pre to make it sound good...it sounded good right
> > out of the box (through the leslie, not anywhere
> > else). It's not necessarily pretty, but like the V5,
> > it has girth. I had never messed with any of the
> > internals on that organ...I found the one preset that
> > actually worked for me (Jimmy) and then started
> > working the drawbars. I set up one split on that
> > patch, and honest to god, even though I'm a tweaker by
> > nature (look at the synths I still own), any sound I
> > needed I was able to obtain via the drawbars, and the
> > immediately accessible controls.
> >
> > Sometimes the more options you have the more
> > possibility of diminishing returns (I do not like the
> > sound of that sentence). Maybe that's what makes the
> > V5 work? Less processing (editing)capability
> > translates to more processing power dedicated to the
> > core sound? Not being a tech-head, I don't know how
> > that whole thing works. But the synths I liked had
> > lots of editing power: The minimoog and the Yamaha
> > CS80. But they were the exception rather than the
> > rule as far as editing power=sonic power.