From bruce@ashbysolutions.com Thu May 23 09:05:42 2002
Subject:Re: Modeled Piano

All,

Unlike the B-4 and its brethren, "modeling" in a commercial keyboard product is rarely accomplished completely in the software domain. The embedded controllers used to run the keyboards are much simpler than PC CPUs, and so a good deal of the modeling is actually done by hard-coded ASICs. Conventional modeling is done in the lab, but once the formulas are well understood and documented, the constant ones are converted to logic devices. This is very similar to the approach that Yamaha took with the DX series.

The problem with piano modeling is that it is much more complicated than tonewheel organs. The CPU and ASIC combination required, created in a low-power design, in the low volumes that musical instruments call for, would probably cost more than $1500/set for the parts alone. Add in sophisticated software, and you're probably talking about a $5-10K SRP product.

"Yeah, it sounds great, but my sampled piano only cost me $1450 at zZounds ..."

Regards,

-BW

--
Bruce Wahler
Design Consultant
Ashby Solutions™ http://consult.ashbysolutions.com
CloneWheel Support Group and HiNote moderator
978.386.7389 voice/fax
bruce@ashbysolutions.com

At 11:55 A 5/23/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>> Anyway, I could be wrong but I don't
>> think anyone has done a fully modelled piano as a consumer product.
>
>I am fairly certain the Roland MKS-20 and the piano - RD1000? - was designed
>using modeling and heralded as a breakthrough product in cost.
>
>Alright, went out there searching and I now think you're correct, in that it
>wasn't completely modeled. Although one could argue even in a completely
>algorithmic approach, there has to be some data to create the various
>elements - i.e., "samples".
>
>Here's a link that touches on the early models I'm referring to and more
>refinements. It sounds like what they did was use some baseline samples
>(though it's hard to tell by their language) and modified them on the fly.
>
>http://www.novelmusic.com/roland/Technical/default.htm
>
>(last paragraph below hints at the approach)
>
>First generation SA soundsource (RD-1000, MKS-20, HP-3000, HP-5000, etc.,
>1986-1989)
>
>The first digital sound source from Roland, was the SA (Structured Adaptive
>Synthesis Sound
>Source) which was specially designed for digital pianos. This
>state-of-the-art sound source was
>used in the pro-use RD-1000 and MKS-20 digital pianos and home-use for the
>HP-3000. These
>digital pianos received much acclaim for their outstanding expressive
>qualities and level of
>achievement as sophisticated instruments.
>
>Around that time, PCM sound source-based sampling techniques also began to
>arrive in
>the market. This technique apparently simulated piano sounds with an instant
>and
>dramatic contrast to digital pianos employing an analog sound source.
>However, this
>sampling technique showed that it was only capable of recording a naturally
>occurring sound
>under certain conditions. It was just like taking a photograph. There were
>difficulties
>when it came to duplicating sound having all rich and expressive timbral
>changes of pianos.
>It is interesting to note that PCM sound sources sounded incredibly lifelike
>to the listener,
>but caused much frustration for the players who were unable to fully express
>themselves
>pianistically with these sound sources.
>
>We believe that the most important factor behind musical instruments is the
>ability to
>express the player's originality and creativity to the fullest. This
>philosophy was therefore
>reflected in the development of the SA Synthesis Sound Source. We were
>committed to
>developing innovative piano sound generation technology that surpassed
>conventional
>sampling.
>
>What really distinguishes piano tones are the rich and colorful tonal
>variations along the
>three axes of note range, playing dynamics, and time. It is these timbral
>subtleties that
>form so much of a piano's distinctive expressive capability.
>
>To make such tonal variations easily controllable by the players, we knew
>simple sampling
>(direct recording) would not be enough. We carefully examined the sources
>that create
>various piano sound characteristics in order to create our proprietary
>technique. This
>technique structures each element of piano sound and stores them
>individually into
>memory, re-synthesized to obtain natural timbral changes.
>
>(more in link above)
>
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