From richardon@nexgo.de Wed Sep 26 20:36:14 2001
Subject:Aw: CX3 vs Electro personal shootout long post
Hi !
I made some experiments concerning the sharpness of the high
drawbars of new Cx3. My tests were initiated by a guy of this group called ORGANIZED. He send me some Cx3 Leslie parameters, that realy improve Cx3 sound, concerning sharpness problem.
In the following I ll try to improve his ideas further, and explain some
troubles of new Cx3.
So take your Cx3 and follow me to an interessting tour, visiting
the coplexe sound modelling structure of your Cx3.
Oszilloscope, Multimeter, Terz Analyzer would be useful, but are not needed,
just measure with your ears.
Headphone is needed.
************************************************
Equipment I used for experiments:
New KORG Cx3
JBL Controle one speaker
Sennheisser Headphone
Philips Volve Sinus Generator ( not necessary )
CREATEC digital Osszilloscope ( not necessary )
*************************************************
STARTING POINT OF THE TOUR:
*************************************************
- Select the sound F2 (Joey Jazz) or similar sound
- Turn Vibrato/Chorus and Percussion off
- Turn Leslie off
- Press edit 4, choose Type1
- Press > > > > and set all EQ values to zero
- Adjust Treble/Bass knobs on panel to zero, 12 o'clock
- Select Upper Drawbar 2
Now we can choose pure Cx3 typical drawbar sounds
*************************************************
TOUR 1
LEARNING MORE ABOUT EACH DRAWBAR:
*************************************************
Listen to the octave wrapping/repetition:
------------------------------------------
Push only 16' Drawbar and play all keys from lowest c to highest c
Push only 51/3' Drawbar playing same way all keys ...
... check all 9 drawbars
Have a look on the diagramms on my homepage:
http://home.nexgo.de/richardon/richy2001/hammond/test/harf1.htm
Harpening of new Cx3 is same as Vk7 or Hammond.
(Diagramm shows additionally harpening of old ! Cx3 )
********************************************************
TOUR 2
Learn more about the sharp drawbars
Detect keys/frequencies with high amplitude (resonance):
--------------------------------------------------------
Push only 16' Drawbar and play all keys from lowest c to highest c
Push only 51/3' Drawbar playing same way all keys ...
Push only 8' Drawbar playing same way all keys ...
--------------------------------------------------------
16' and 8' Drawbar have no emphasis/resonance
51/3' Drawbar has some resonance at highest Key C ( 3 kHz )
That will be important in further !
Regard the frequencie, thats the note high G !
... check all 9 drawbars this way
--------------------------------------------------------
you will always find an emphasis/resonance around this high G between
2 kHz and 4 kHz, typicall 3 kHz, a little bit different for each drawbar.
Is it typicall for Hammond sound to emphase this 3 kHz ?????
Perhaps, but with Cx3 its too much.
VK7 does not support this, except for the percussion !
Have a look at the diagramms on my homepage:
http://home.nexgo.de/richardon/richy2001/hammond/test/perc1.htm
4' VK7 percussion has an emphasis between 2 kHz and 3 kHz !
But only in the VK7 Percussion, not the VK7 Drawbars itself.
--------------------------------------------------------
New Cx3 is different:
All CX3 Drawbars have the 3 kHz emphasis too much, leading to this
sharp sound of the high drawbars round 3 kHz.
Remember, 3-5 kHz is the frequencie your ear hears best.
So its no wonder you will damage the ears of your audience, playing
Cx3 Fullbar without tricks.
Fullbar, all "G-Resonaces " are added to an terrible mixture.
( Gx3 would be a better name for new Cx3 :-( )
*********************************************************************
Parameters with influence to 3 kHz emphasis:
In following i ll name 3 kHz emphasis as G-Resonance, shorter G/R.
A lot of Cx3 parameters have influence to G/R.
So lets check whole Cx3 for G/R.
No influence is marked with 0
Increasing G/R is marked with +
Decreasing G/R is marked with -
*********************************************************************
Here are some of my results.
Parameters that influence G/R are
Panel filter knobs -0+
Storable filter -0+
Vibrato/Chorus +
Amp Type - +
Dissortion/Gain -0
HORN ROTOR Balance -0
MIC DISTANCE -0+
MIC SPREAD 0
any other Idea ?
*********************************************************************
VIBRATO/CHORUS:
TOUR 3
Get some new experience detecting G/R depending on VIBRATO/CHORUS
Lets make a simply new TOUR !
Choose single 4' drawbar and play highest G without VIBRATO/CHORUS.
Now turning VIBRATO/CHORUS on.
G/R problem will increase like this:
V1 +
V2 +
V3 ++
C1 +++
C2 +++
C3 ++++
*********************************************************************
TOUR 4
Decreasing G/R Problem with Cx3 filters:
*********************************************************************
There is no information concerning the cut off frequencies of the
fixed filters (panel/storable) in the Cx3 manual. I made some tests
to determine the frequencies in a range of one octave, together with
a note, near to the cut off frequencie: ( the values are not exact )
( middle C = key in position below swich EX Mode )
Treble
C=2 KHz
G=3 kHz 4 Fuss highest G
c=4 Khz
Middle
g=400
c=600 Hz 4 Fuss middle C
g=800
Bass
g=100 Hz
c=150 Hz 16 Fuss middle C
g=200 Hz
So we have cut off frequencies like this:
Treble 3000 Hz ( thats middle on a mixer ) (Band or Highpass ?)
Middle 600 Hz ( thats nothing ) (Bandpass )
bass 150 Hz ( thats base frequencie ) (Lowpass )
*********************************************************************
Naming of Cx3 EQ is totally missplaced !!!
With Treble you expect influence to 12 kHz waves, but it is a low
midrange formant filter of 3 kHz !
Very good adapted to the 3 kHz emphasis. You can controle the important
3 kHz frequencie domain with treble. -4 is a good number.
With the middle filter you expect an filter in midrange, but it is an
filter for low midrange.
There is no chance to controle directly frequencies in the 3 kHz Range
with the middle filter. But you can emphase lower frequencies, that
is same as decreasing higher frequencies. So Middle should be always
positive to solve G/R problem !
bass has no influence to the G/R problem.
*********************************************************************
TOUR 5
External frequencie sliders Treble/Bass on panel:
Same as storable Treble / Bass frequncies.
Instead of decreasing the treble parameter for all sounds, you can do it
more convinient, to decrease the 3 kHz frequencie by choosing a fixed
value for the panel treble slider. 9-10 o'clock is a good value.
*********************************************************************
TOUR 6
Leaving the easy way.
With Leslie Simulation the G/R Problem gets worth, now depending on a set
of parameters.
Additionaly its depending of the choosen amp type and amount of distortion:
*********************************************************************
TOUR 7
Let's explore different Amp Types.
Press highest G using single 4' Drawbar ( 3 kHz )
Compare it in following to the c key of 2 kHz !
Switch between TYPE1/2 and PRE AMP.
Result:
PRE AMP has no G/R problem.
TYPE1 has more G/R problems than TYPE2.
*********************************************************************
TOUR 8
Adding Overdrive
For Type1 still the same situation
For Type2 overdrive will decrease the G/R problem
*********************************************************************
TOUR 9
Cut off Frequencie of HORN/ROTOR Balance
ROTOR: cut off = 250 HZ
HORN : unfilterd
*********************************************************************
TOUR 9
Leslie Parameters
Added if there is any interesst.
*********************************************************************
I hope its excused, I somehow tried to stop, very silly, the
tecnical discussion in this group.
That was driven by my fealings as musician amd european.
It was impossible for me, to speak about tecnical details after
11.9. I expected all members of this group having the same
fealing. I know that was wrong, Please "excuse moi."
Yours
richy
(germany)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
250 Visitenkarten GRATIS (zzgl. EUR 8,95 Porto)!
Hochwertige, vollfarbige Visitenkarten. Ideal für Privat & Büro.
http://www.nexgo.de/c/pub/redir.php/vistaprint
-----------------------------------------------------------------------